Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!
Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.
Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.
Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.
Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books, other works that take place in Sanderson’s cosmere (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, etc.), and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.
Chapter 19
The Subtle Art of Diplomacy
THIRTY-ONE YEARS AGO
A candle flickered on the table, and Dalinar lit the end of his napkin in it, sending a small braid of pungent smoke into the air. Stupid decorative candles. What was the point? Looking pretty? Didn’t they use spheres because they were better than candles for light?
At a glare from Gavilar, Dalinar stopped burning his napkin and leaned back, nursing a mug of deep violet wine. The kind you could smell from across the room, potent and flavorful. A feast hall spread before him, dozens of tables set on the floor of the large stone room. The place was far too warm, and sweat prickled on his arms and forehead. Too many candles maybe.
Outside the feast hall, a storm raged like a madman who’d been locked away, impotent and ignored.
“But how do you deal with highstorms, Brightlord?” Toh said to Gavilar. The tall, blond-haired Westerner sat with them at the high table.
“Good planning keeps an army from needing to be out during a storm except in rare situations,” Gavilar explained. “Holdings are common in Alethkar. If a campaign takes longer than anticipated, we can split the army and retreat back to a number of these towns for shelter.”
“And if you’re in the middle of a siege?” Toh asked.
“Sieges are rare out here, Brightlord Toh,” Gavilar said, chuckling.
“Surely there are cities with fortifications,” Toh said. “Your famed Kholinar has majestic walls, does it not?” The Westerner had a thick accent and spoke in a clipped, annoying way. Sounded silly.
“You’re forgetting about Soulcasters,” Gavilar said. “Yes, sieges happen now and then, but it’s very hard to starve out a city’s soldiers while there are Soulcasters and emeralds to make food. Instead we usually break down the walls quickly, or—more commonly—we seize the high ground and use that vantage to pound the city for a while.”
Toh nodded, seeming fascinated. “Soulcasters. We have not these things in Rira or Iri. Fascinating, fascinating… And so many Shards here. Perhaps half the world’s wealth of Blades and Plates, all contained in Vorin kingdoms. The Heralds themselves favor you.”
Dalinar took a long pull on his wine. Outside, thunder shook the bunker. The highstorm was in full force now.
Inside, servants brought out slabs of pork and lanka claws for the men, cooked in a savory broth. The women dined elsewhere, including, he’d heard, Toh’s sister. Dalinar hadn’t met her yet. The two Western lighteyes had arrived barely an hour before the storm hit.
The hall soon echoed with the sounds of people chatting. Dalinar tore into his lanka claws, cracking them with the bottom of his mug and biting out the meat. This feast seemed too polite. Where was the music, the laughter? The women? Eating in separate rooms?
Life had been different these last few years of conquest. The final four highprinces stood firm in their unified front. The once-frantic fighting had stalled. More and more of Gavilar’s time was required by the administration of his kingdom—which was half as big as they wanted it to be, but still demanding.
Politics. Gavilar and Sadeas didn’t make Dalinar play at it too often, but he still had to sit at feasts like this one, rather than dining with his men. He sucked on a claw, watching Gavilar talk to the foreigner. Storms. Gavilar actually looked regal, with his beard combed like that, glowing gemstones on his fingers. He wore a uniform of the newer style. Formal, rigid. Dalinar instead wore his skirtlike takama and an open overshirt that went down to midthigh, his chest bare.
Sadeas held court with a group of lesser lighteyes at a table across the hall. Every one of that group had been carefully chosen: men with uncertain loyalties. He’d talk, persuade, convince. And if he was worried, he’d find ways to eliminate them. Not with assassins, of course. They all found that sort of thing distasteful; it wasn’t the Alethi way. Instead, they’d maneuver the man into a duel with Dalinar, or would position him at the front of an assault. Ialai, Sadeas’s wife, spent an impressive amount of time cooking up new schemes for getting rid of problematic allies.
Dalinar finished the claws, then turned toward his pork, a succulent slab of meat swimming in gravy. The food was better at this feast. He just wished that he didn’t feel so useless here. Gavilar made alliances; Sadeas dealt with problems. Those two could treat a feast hall like a battlefield.
Dalinar reached to his side for his knife so he could cut the pork. Except the knife wasn’t there.
Damnation. He’d lent it to Teleb, hadn’t he? He stared down at the pork, smelling its peppery sauce, his mouth watering. He reached to eat with his fingers, then thought to look up. Everyone else was eating primly, with utensils. But the servers had forgotten to bring him a knife.
Damnation again. He sat back, wagging his mug for more wine. Nearby, Gavilar and that foreigner continued their chat.
“Your campaign here has been impressive, Brightlord Kholin,” Toh said. “One sees a glint of your ancestor in you, the great Sunmaker.”
“Hopefully,” Gavilar noted, “my accomplishments won’t be as ephemeral as his.”
“Ephemeral! He reforged Alethkar, Brightlord! You shouldn’t speak so of one like him. You’re his descendant, correct?”
“We all are,” Gavilar said. “House Kholin, House Sadeas… all ten princedoms. Their founders were his sons, you know. So yes, signs of his touch are here—yet his empire didn’t last even a single generation past his death. Leaves me wondering what was wrong with his vision, his planning, that his great empire broke apart so quickly.”
The storm rumbled. Dalinar tried to catch the attention of a servant to request a dinner knife, but they were too busy scuttling about, seeing to the needs of other demanding feastgoers.
He sighed, then stood—stretching—and walked to the door, holding his empty mug. Lost in thought, he threw aside the bar on the door, then shoved open the massive wooden construction and stepped outside.
A sheet of icy rain suddenly washed over his skin, and wind blasted him fiercely enough that he stumbled. The highstorm was at its raging height, lightning blasting down like vengeful attacks from the Heralds.
Dalinar struck out into the storm, his overshirt whipping about him. Gavilar talked more and more about things like legacy, the kingdom, responsibility. What had happened to the fun of the fight, to riding into battle laughing?
Thunder crashed, and the periodic strikes of lightning were barely enough to see by. Still, Dalinar knew his way around well enough. This was a highstorm waystop, a place built to house patrolling armies during storms. He and Gavilar had been positioned at this one for a good four months now, drawing tribute from the nearby farms and menacing House Evavakh from just inside its borders.
Dalinar found the particular bunker he was looking for and pounded on the door. No response. So he summoned his Shardblade, slid the tip between the double doors, and sliced the bar inside. He pushed open the door to find a group of wide-eyed armed men scrambling into defensive lines, surrounded by fearspren, weapons held in nervous grips.
“Teleb,” Dalinar said, standing in the doorway. “Did I lend you my belt knife? My favorite one, with the whitespine ivory on the grip?”
The tall soldier, who stood in the second rank of terrified men, gaped at him. “Uh… your knife, Brightlord?”
“Lost the thing somewhere,” Dalinar said. “I lent it to you, didn’t I?”
“I gave it back, sir,” Teleb said. “You used it to pry that splinter out of your saddle, remember?”
“Damnation. You’re right. What did I do with that blasted thing?” Dalinar left the doorway and strode back out into the storm.
Perhaps Dalinar’s worries had more to do with himself than they did Gavilar. The Kholin battles were so calculated these days—and these last months had been more about what happened off the battlefield than on it. It all seemed to leave Dalinar behind like the discarded shell of a cremling after it molted.
An explosive burst of wind drove him against the wall, and he stumbled, then stepped backward, driven by instincts he couldn’t define. A large boulder slammed into the wall, then bounced away. Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs.
Dalinar stepped back up to the feast hall, gave the whatever-it-was a rude gesture, then pushed open the door—throwing aside two servants who had been holding it closed—and strode back in. Streaming with water, he walked up to the high table, where he flopped into his chair and set down his mug. Wonderful. Now he was wet and he still couldn’t eat his pork.
Everyone had gone silent. A sea of eyes stared at him.
“Brother?” Gavilar asked, the only sound in the room. “Is everything… all right?”
“Lost my storming knife,” Dalinar said. “Thought I’d left it in the other bunker.” He raised his mug and took a loud, lazy slurp of rainwater.
“Excuse me, Lord Gavilar,” Toh stammered. “I… I find myself in need of refreshment.” The blond-haired Westerner stood from his place, bowed, and retreated across the room to where a master-servant was administering drinks. His face seemed even paler than those folk normally were.
“What’s wrong with him?” Dalinar asked, scooting his chair closer to his brother.
“I assume,” Gavilar said, sounding amused, “that people he knows don’t casually go for strolls in highstorms.”
“Bah,” Dalinar said. “This is a fortified waystop, with walls and bunkers. We needn’t be scared of a little wind.”
“Toh thinks differently, I assure you.”
“You’re grinning.”
“You may have just proven in one moment, Dalinar, a point I’ve spent a half hour trying to make politically. Toh wonders if we’re strong enough to protect him.”
“Is that what the conversation was about?”
“Obliquely, yes.”
“Huh. Glad I could help.” Dalinar picked at a claw on Gavilar’s plate. “What does it take to get one of these fancy servants to get me a storming knife?”
“They’re master-servants, Dalinar,” his brother said, making a sign by raising his hand in a particular way. “The sign of need, remember?”
“No.”
“You really need to pay better attention,” Gavilar said. “We aren’t living in huts anymore.”
They’d never lived in huts. They were Kholin, heirs to one of the world’s great cities—even if Dalinar had never seen the place before his twelfth year. He didn’t like that Gavilar was buying into the story the rest of the kingdom told, the one that claimed their branch of the house had until recently been ruffians from the backwaters of their own princedom.
A gaggle of servants in black and white flocked to Gavilar, and he requested a new dining knife for Dalinar. As they split to run the errand, the doors to the women’s feast hall opened, and a figure slipped in.
Dalinar’s breath caught. Navani’s hair glowed with the tiny rubies she’d woven into it, a color matched by her pendant and bracelet. Her face a sultry tan, her hair Alethi jet black, her red-lipped smile so knowing and clever. And a figure… a figure to make a man weep for desire.
His brother’s wife.
Dalinar steeled himself and raised his arm in a gesture like the one Gavilar had made. A serving man stepped up with a springy gait. “Brightlord,” he said, “I will see to your desires of course, though you might wish to know that the sign is off. If you’ll allow me to demonstrate—”
Dalinar made a rude gesture. “Is this better?”
“Uh…”
“Wine,” Dalinar said, wagging his mug. “Violet. Enough to fill this three times at least.”
“And what vintage would you like, Brightlord?”
He eyed Navani. “Whichever one is closest.”
Navani slipped between tables, followed by the squatter form of Ialai Sadeas. Neither seemed to care that they were the only lighteyed women in the room.
“What happened to the emissary?” Navani said as she arrived. She slid between Dalinar and Gavilar as a servant brought her a chair.
“Dalinar scared him off,” Gavilar said.
The scent of her perfume was heady. Dalinar scooted his chair to the side and set his face. Be firm, don’t let her know how she warmed him, brought him to life like nothing else but battle.
Ialai pulled a chair over for herself, and a servant brought Dalinar’s wine. He took a long, calming drink straight from the jug.
“We’ve been assessing the sister,” Ialai said, leaning in from Gavilar’s other side. “She’s a touch vapid—”
“A touch?” Navani asked.
“—but I’m reasonably sure she’s being honest.”
“The brother seems the same,” Gavilar said, rubbing his chin and inspecting Toh, who was nursing a drink near the bar. “Innocent, wide-eyed. I think he’s genuine though.”
“He’s a sycophant,” Dalinar said with a grunt.
“He’s a man without a home, Dalinar,” Ialai said. “No loyalty, at the mercy of those who take him in. And he has only one piece he can play to secure his future.”
Shardplate.
Taken from his homeland of Rira and brought east, as far as Toh could get from his kinsmen—who were reportedly outraged to find such a precious heirloom stolen.
“He doesn’t have the armor with him,” Gavilar said. “He’s at least smart enough not to carry it. He’ll want assurances before giving it to us. Powerful assurances.”
“Look how he stares at Dalinar,” Navani said. “You impressed him.” She cocked her head. “Are you wet?”
Dalinar ran his hand through his hair. Storms. He hadn’t been embarrassed to stare down the crowd in the room, but before her he found himself blushing.
Gavilar laughed. “He went for a stroll.”
“You’re kidding,” Ialai said, scooting over as Sadeas joined them at the high table. The bulbous-faced man settled down on her chair with her, the two of them sitting half on, half off. He dropped a plate on the table, piled with claws in a bright red sauce. Ialai attacked them immediately. She was one of the few women Dalinar knew who liked masculine food.
“What are we discussing?” Sadeas asked, waving away a master-servant with a chair, then draping his arm around his wife’s shoulders.
“We’re talking about getting Dalinar married,” Ialai said.
“What?” Dalinar demanded, choking on a mouthful of wine.
“That is the point of this, right?” Ialai said. “They want someone who can protect them, someone their family will be too afraid to attack. But Toh and his sister, they’ll want more than just asylum. They’ll want to be part of things. Inject their blood into the royal line, so to speak.”
Dalinar took another long drink.
“You could try water sometime you know, Dalinar,” Sadeas said. “I had some rainwater earlier. Everyone stared at me funny.”
Navani smiled at him. There wasn’t enough wine in the world to prepare him for the gaze behind the smile, so piercing, so appraising.
“This could be what we need,” Gavilar said. “It gives us not only the Shard, but the appearance of speaking for Alethkar. If people outside the kingdom start coming to me for refuge and treaties, we might be able to sway the remaining highprinces. We might be able to unite this country not through further war, but through sheer weight of legitimacy.”
A servant, at long last, arrived with a knife for Dalinar. He took it eagerly, then frowned as the woman walked away.
“What?” Navani asked.
“This little thing?” Dalinar asked, pinching the dainty knife between two fingers and dangling it. “How am I supposed to eat a pork steak with this?”
“Attack it,” Ialai said, making a stabbing motion. “Pretend it’s some thick-necked man who has been insulting your biceps.”
“If someone insulted my biceps, I wouldn’t attack him,” Dalinar said. “I’d refer him to a physician, because obviously something is wrong with his eyes.”
Navani laughed, a musical sound.
“Oh, Dalinar,” Sadeas said. “I don’t think there’s another person on Roshar who could have said that with a straight face.”
Dalinar grunted, then tried to maneuver the little knife into cutting the steak. The meat was growing cold, but still smelled delicious. A single hungerspren started flitting about his head, like a tiny brown fly of the type you saw out in the west near the Purelake.
“What defeated Sunmaker?” Gavilar suddenly asked.
“Hmm?” Ialai said.
“Sunmaker,” Gavilar said, looking from Navani, to Sadeas, to Dalinar. “He united Alethkar. Why did he fail to create a lasting empire?”
“His kids were too greedy,” Dalinar said, sawing at his steak. “Or too weak maybe. There wasn’t one of them that the others would agree to support.”
“No, that’s not it,” Navani said. “They might have united, if the Sunmaker himself could have been bothered to settle on an heir. It’s his fault.”
“He was off in the west,” Gavilar said. “Leading his army to ‘further glory.’ Alethkar and Herdaz weren’t enough for him. He wanted the whole world.”
“So it was his ambition,” Sadeas said.
“No, his greed,” Gavilar said quietly. “What’s the point of conquering if you can never sit back and enjoy it? Shubreth-son-Mashalan, Sunmaker, even the Hierocracy… they all stretched farther and farther until they collapsed. In all the history of mankind, has any conqueror decided they had enough? Has any man just said, ‘This is good. This is what I wanted,’ and gone home?”
“Right now,” Dalinar said, “what I want is to eat my storming steak.” He held up the little knife, which was bent in the middle.
Navani blinked. “How in the Almighty’s tenth name did you do that?”
“Dunno.”
Gavilar stared with that distant, far-off look in his green eyes. A look that was becoming more and more common. “Why are we at war, Brother?”
“This again?” Dalinar said. “Look, it’s not so complicated. Can’t you remember how it was back when we started?”
“Remind me.”
“Well,” Dalinar said, wagging his bent knife. “We looked at this place here, this kingdom, and we realized, ‘Hey, all these people have stuff .’ And we figured… hey, maybe we should have that stuff. So we took it.”
“Oh Dalinar,” Sadeas said, chuckling. “You are a gem.”
“Don’t you ever think about what it meant though?” Gavilar asked. “A kingdom? Something grander than yourself ?”
“That’s foolishness, Gavilar. When people fight, it’s about the stuff That’s it.”
“Maybe,” Gavilar said. “Maybe. There’s something I want you to listen to. The Codes of War, from the old days. Back when Alethkar meant something.”
Dalinar nodded absently as the serving staff entered with teas and fruit to close the meal; one tried to take his steak, and he growled at her. As she backed away, Dalinar caught sight of something. A woman peeking into the room from the other feast hall. She wore a delicate, filmy dress of pale yellow, matched by her blonde hair.
He leaned forward, curious. Toh’s sister Evi was eighteen, maybe nineteen. She was tall, almost as tall as an Alethi, and small of chest. In fact, there was a certain sense of flimsiness to her, as if she were somehow less real than an Alethi. The same went for her brother, with his slender build.
But that hair. It made her stand out, like a candle’s glow in a dark room.
She scampered across the feast hall to her brother, who handed her a drink. She tried to take it with her left hand, which was tied inside a small pouch of yellow cloth. The dress didn’t have sleeves, strangely.
“She kept trying to eat with her safehand,” Navani said, eyebrow cocked.
Ialai leaned down the table toward Dalinar, speaking conspiratorially. “They go about half-clothed out in the far west, you know. Rirans, Iriali, the Reshi. They aren’t as inhibited as these prim Alethi women. I bet she’s quite exotic in the bedroom.…”
Dalinar grunted. Then finally spotted a knife.
In the hand hidden behind the back of a server clearing Gavilar’s plates.
Dalinar kicked at his brother’s chair, breaking a leg off and sending Gavilar toppling to the ground. The assassin swung at the same moment, clipping Gavilar’s ear, but otherwise missing. The wild swing struck the table, driving the knife into the wood.
Dalinar leaped to his feet, reaching over Gavilar and grabbing the assassin by the neck. He spun the would-be killer around and slammed him to the floor with a satisfying crunch. Still in motion, Dalinar grabbed the knife from the table and pounded it into the assassin’s chest.
Puffing, Dalinar stepped back and wiped the rainwater from his eyes. Gavilar sprang to his feet, Shardblade appearing in his hand. He looked down at the assassin, then at Dalinar.
Dalinar kicked at the assassin to be sure he was dead. He nodded to himself, righted his chair, sat down, then leaned over and yanked the man’s knife from his chest. A fine blade.
He washed it off in his wine, then cut off a piece of his steak and shoved it into his mouth. Finally.
“Good pork,” Dalinar noted around the bite.
Across the room, Toh and his sister were staring at Dalinar with looks that mixed awe and terror. He caught a few shockspren around them, like triangles of yellow light, breaking and re-forming. Rare spren, those were.
“Thank you,” Gavilar said, touching his ear and the blood that was dripping from it.
Dalinar shrugged. “Sorry about killing him. You probably wanted to question him, eh?”
“It’s no stretch to guess who sent him,” Gavilar said, settling down, waving away the guards who—belatedly—rushed to help. Navani clutched his arm, obviously shaken by the attack.
Sadeas cursed under his breath. “Our enemies grow desperate. Cowardly. An assassin during a storm? An Alethi should be ashamed of such action.”
Again, everyone in the feast was gawking at the high table. Dalinar cut his steak again, shoving another piece into his mouth. What? He wasn’t going to drink the wine he’d washed the blood into. He wasn’t a barbarian.
“I know I said I wanted you free to make your own choice in regard to a bride,” Gavilar said. “But…”
“I’ll do it,” Dalinar said, eyes forward. Navani was lost to him. He needed to just storming accept that.
“They’re timid and careful,” Navani noted, dabbing at Gavilar’s ear with her napkin. “It might take more time to persuade them.”
“Oh, I wouldn’t worry about that,” Gavilar said, looking back at the corpse. “Dalinar is nothing if not persuasive.”
Chapter 20
Cords to Bind
However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Now this,” Kaladin said, “isn’t actually that serious a wound. I know it looks deep, but it’s often better to be cut deep by a sharp knife than to be raggedly gouged by something dull.”
He pressed the skin of Khen’s arm together and applied the bandage to her cut. “Always use clean cloth you’ve boiled—rotspren love dirty cloth. Infection is the real danger here; you’ll spot it as red along the outsides of the wound that grows and streaks. There will be pus too. Always wash out a cut before binding it.”
He patted Khen’s arm and took back his knife, which had caused the offending laceration when Khen had been using it to cut branches off a fallen tree for firewood. Around her, the other parshmen gathered the cakes they’d dried in the sun.
They had a surprising number of resources, all things considered. Several parshmen had thought to grab metal buckets during their raid— which had worked as pots for boiling—and the waterskins were going to be a lifesaver. He joined Sah, the parshman who had originally been his captor, among the trees of their improvised camp. The parshman was lashing a stone axehead to a branch.
Kaladin took it from him and tested it against a log, judging how well it split the wood. “You need to lash it tighter,” Kaladin said. “Get the leather strips wet and really pull as you wrap it. If you aren’t careful, it’ll fall off on you midswing.”
Sah grunted, taking back the hatchet and grumbling to himself as he undid the lashings. He eyed Kaladin. “You can go check on someone else, human.”
“We should march tonight,” Kaladin said. “We’ve been in one spot too long. And break into small groups, like I said.”
“We’ll see.”
“Look, if there’s something wrong with my advice…”
“Nothing is wrong.”
“But—”
Sah sighed, looking up and meeting Kaladin’s eyes. “Where did a slave learn to give orders and strut about like a lighteyes?”
“My entire life was not spent as a slave.”
“I hate,” Sah continued, “feeling like a child.” He started rewrapping the axehead, tighter this time. “I hate being taught things that I should already know. Most of all, I hate needing your help. We ran. We escaped. Now what? You leap in, start telling us what to do? We’re back to following Alethi orders again.”
Kaladin stayed silent.
“That yellow spren isn’t any better,” Sah muttered. “Hurry up. Keep moving. She tells us we’re free, then with the very next breath berates us for not obeying quickly enough.”
They were surprised that Kaladin couldn’t see the spren. They’d also mentioned to him the sounds they heard, distant rhythms, almost music.
“ ‘Freedom’ is a strange word, Sah,” Kaladin said softly, settling down. “These last few months, I’ve probably been more ‘free’ than at any time since my childhood. You want to know what I did with it? I stayed in the same place, serving another highlord. I wonder if men who use cords to bind are fools, since tradition, society, and momentum are going to tie us all down anyway.”
“I don’t have traditions,” Sah said. “Or society. But still, my ‘freedom’ is that of a leaf. Dropped from the tree, I just blow on the wind and pretend I’m in charge of my destiny.”
“That was almost poetry, Sah.”
“I have no idea what that is.” He pulled the last lashing tight and held up the new hatchet.
Kaladin took it and buried it into the log next to him. “Better.”
“Aren’t you worried, human? Teaching us to make cakes is one thing. Giving us weapons is quite another.”
“A hatchet is a tool, not a weapon.”
“Perhaps,” Sah said. “But with this same chipping and sharpening method you taught, I will eventually make a spear.”
“You act as if a fight is inevitable.”
Sah laughed. “You don’t think it is?”
“You have a choice.”
“Says the man with the brand on his forehead. If they’re willing to do that to one of their own, what brutality awaits a bunch of thieving parshmen?”
“Sah, it doesn’t have to come to war. You don’t have to fight the humans.”
“Perhaps. But let me ask you this.” He set the axe across his lap. “Considering what they did to me, why wouldn’t I?”
Kaladin couldn’t force out an objection. He remembered his own time as a slave: the frustration, powerlessness, anger. They’d branded him with shash because he was dangerous. Because he’d fought back.
Dare he demand this man do otherwise?
“They’ll want to enslave us again,” Sah continued, taking the hatchet and hacking at the log next to him, starting to strip off the rough bark as Kaladin had instructed, so they could have tinder. “We’re money lost, and a dangerous precedent. Your kind will expend a fortune figuring out what changed to give us back our minds, and they’ll find a way to reverse it. They’ll strip from me my sanity, and set me to carrying water again.”
“Maybe… maybe we can convince them otherwise. I know good men among the Alethi lighteyes, Sah. If we talk to them, show them how you can talk and think—that you’re like regular people—they’ll listen. They’ll agree to give you your freedom. That’s how they treated your cousins on the Shattered Plains when they first met.”
Sah slammed the hatchet down into the wood, sending a chip fluttering into the air. “And that’s why we should be free now? Because we’re acting like you? We deserved slavery before, when we were different? It’s all right to dominate us when we won’t fight back, but now it’s not, because we can talk?”
“Well, I mean—”
“That’s why I’m angry! Thank you for what you’re showing us, but don’t expect me to be happy that I need you for it. This just reinforces the belief within you, maybe even within myself, that your people should be the ones who decide upon our freedom in the first place.”
Sah stalked off, and once he was gone, Syl appeared from the underbrush and settled on Kaladin’s shoulder, alert—watching for the Voidspren—but not immediately alarmed.
“I think I can sense a highstorm coming,” she whispered.
“What? Really?”
She nodded. “It’s distant still. A day or three.” She cocked her head.
“I suppose I could have done this earlier, but I didn’t need to. Or know I wanted to. You always had the lists.”
Kaladin took a deep breath. How to protect these people from the storm? He’d have to find shelter. He’d…
I’m doing it again.
“I can’t do this, Syl,” Kaladin whispered. “I can’t spend time with these parshmen, see their side.”
“Why?”
“Because Sah is right. This is going to come to war. The Voidspren will drive the parshmen into an army, and rightly so, after what was done to them. Our kind will have to fight back or be destroyed.”
“Then find the middle ground.”
“Middle ground only comes in war after lots of people have died—and only after the important people are worried they might actually lose. Storms, I shouldn’t be here. I’m starting to want to defend these people! Teach them to fight. I don’t dare—the only way I can fight the Voidbringers is to pretend there’s a difference between the ones I have to protect and the ones I have to kill.”
He trudged through the underbrush and started helping tear down one of the crude tarp tents for the night’s march.
Chapter 21
Set Up to Fall
I am no storyteller, to entertain you with whimsical yarns.
—From Oathbringer, preface
A clamorous, insistent knocking woke Shallan. She still didn’t have a bed, so she slept in a heap of red hair and twisted blankets.
She pulled one of these over her head, but the knocking persisted, followed by Adolin’s annoyingly charming voice. “Shallan? Look, this time I’m going to wait to come in until you’re really sure I should.”
She peeked out at the sunlight, which poured through her balcony window like spilled paint. Morning? The sun was in the wrong place.
Wait… Stormfather. She’d spent the night out as Veil, then slept to the afternoon. She groaned, tossing off sweaty blankets, and lay there in just her shift, head pounding. There was an empty jug of Horneater white in the corner.
“Shallan?” Adolin said. “Are you decent?”
“Depends,” she said, voice croaking, “on the context. I’m decent at sleeping.”
She put hands over her eyes, safehand still wrapped in an improvised bandage. What had gotten into her? Tossing around the symbol of the Ghostbloods? Drinking herself silly? Stabbing a man in front of a gang of armed thugs?
Her actions felt like they’d taken place in a dream.
“Shallan,” Adolin said, sounding concerned. “I’m going to peek in. Palona says you’ve been in here all day.”
She yelped, sitting up and grabbing the bedding. When he looked, he found her bundled there, a frizzy-haired head protruding from blankets— which she had pulled tight up to her chin. He looked perfect, of course. Adolin could look perfect after a storm, six hours of fighting, and a bath in cremwater. Annoying man. How did he make his hair so adorable? Messy in just the right way.
“Palona said you weren’t feeling well,” Adolin said, pushing aside the cloth door and leaning in the doorway.
“Blarg.”
“Is it, um, girl stuff ?”
“Girl stuff,” she said flatly.
“You know. When you… uh…”
“I’m aware of the biology, Adolin, thank you. Why is it that every time a woman is feeling a little odd, men are so quick to blame her cycle? As if she’s suddenly unable to control herself because she has some pains. Nobody thinks that for men. ‘Oh, stay away from Venar today. He sparred too much yesterday, so his muscles are sore, and he’s likely to rip your head off.’ ”
“So it’s our fault.”
“Yes. Like everything else. War. Famine. Bad hair.”
“Wait. Bad hair?”
Shallan blew a lock of it out of her eyes. “Loud. Stubborn. Oblivious to our attempts to fix it. The Almighty gave us messy hair to prepare us for living with men.”
Adolin brought in a small pot of warm washwater for her face and hands.
Bless him. And Palona, who had probably sent it with him.
Damnation, her hand ached. And her head. She remembered occasionally burning off the alcohol last night, but hadn’t ever held enough Stormlight to completely fix the hand. And never enough to make her completely sober.
Adolin set the water down, perky as a sunrise, grinning. “So what is wrong?”
She pulled the blanket up over her head and pulled it tight, like the hood of a cloak. “Girl stuff,” she lied.
“See, I don’t think men would blame your cycle nearly as much if you all didn’t do the same. I’ve courted my share of women, and I once kept track. Deeli was once sick for womanly reasons four times in the same month.”
“We’re very mysterious creatures.”
“I’ll say.” He lifted up the jug and gave it a sniff. “Is this Horneater white?” He looked to her, seeming shocked—but perhaps also a little impressed.
“Got a little carried away,” Shallan grumbled. “Doing investigations about your murderer.”
“In a place serving Horneater moonshine?”
“Back alley of the Breakaway. Nasty place. Good booze though.”
“Shallan!” he said. “You went alone? That’s not safe.”
“Adolin, dear,” she said, finally pulling the blanket back down to her shoulders, “I could literally survive being stabbed with a sword through the chest. I think I’ll be fine with some ruffians in the market.”
“Oh. Right. It’s kind of easy to forget.” He frowned. “So… wait. You could survive all kinds of nasty murder, but you still…”
“Get menstrual cramps?” Shallan said. “Yeah. Mother Cultivation can be hateful. I’m an all-powerful, Shardblade-wielding pseudo-immortal, but nature still sends a friendly reminder every now and then to tell me I should be getting around to having children.”
“No mating,” Pattern buzzed softly on the wall.
“But I shouldn’t be blaming yesterday on that,” Shallan added to Adolin. “My time isn’t for another few weeks. Yesterday was more about psychology than it was about biology.”
Adolin set the jug down. “Yeah, well, you might want to watch out for the Horneater wines.”
“It’s not so bad,” Shallan said with a sigh. “I can burn away the intoxication with a little Stormlight. Speaking of which, you don’t have any spheres with you, do you? I seem to have… um… eaten all of mine.”
He chuckled. “I have one. A single sphere. Father lent it to me so I could stop carrying a lantern everywhere in these halls.”
She tried to bat her eyelashes at him. She wasn’t exactly sure how one did that, or why, but it seemed to work. At the very least, he rolled his eyes and handed over a single ruby mark.
She sucked in the Light hungrily. She held her breath so it wouldn’t puff out when she breathed, and… suppressed the Light. She could do that, she’d found. To prevent herself from glowing or drawing attention. She’d done that as a child, hadn’t she?
Her hand slowly reknit, and she let out a relieved sigh as the headache vanished as well.
Adolin was left with a dun sphere. “You know, when my father explained that good relationships required investment, I don’t think this is what he meant.”
“Mmm,” Shallan said, closing her eyes and smiling.
“Also,” Adolin added, “we have the strangest conversations.”
“It feels natural to have them with you, though.”
“I think that’s the oddest part. Well, you’ll want to start being more careful with your Stormlight. Father mentioned he was trying to get you more infused spheres for practice, but there just aren’t any.”
“What about Hatham’s people?” she said. “They left out lots of spheres in the last highstorm.” That had only been…
She did the math, and found herself stunned. It had been weeks since the unexpected highstorm where she’d first worked the Oathgate. She looked at the sphere between Adolin’s fingers.
Those should all have gone dun by now, she thought. Even the ones renewed most recently. How did they have any Stormlight at all?
Suddenly, her actions the night before seemed even more irresponsible. When Dalinar had commanded her to practice with her powers, he probably hadn’t meant practicing how to avoid getting too drunk.
She sighed, and—still keeping the blanket on—reached for the bowl of washing water. She had a lady’s maid named Marri, but she kept sending her away. She didn’t want the woman discovering that she was sneaking out or changing faces. If she kept on like that, Palona would probably assign the woman to other work.
The water didn’t seem to have any scents or soaps applied to it, so Shallan raised the small basin and then took a long, slurping drink.
“I washed my feet in that,” Adolin noted.
“No you didn’t.” Shallan smacked her lips. “Anyway, thanks for dragging me out of bed.”
“Well,” he said, “I have selfish reasons. I’m kind of hoping for some moral support.”
“Don’t hit the message too hard. If you want someone to believe what you’re telling them, come to your point gradually, so they’re with you the entire time.”
He cocked his head.
“Oh, not that kind of moral,” Shallan said.
“Talking to you can be weird sometimes.”
“Sorry, sorry. I’ll be good.” She sat as primly and attentively as she could, wrapped in a blanket with her hair sticking out like the snarls of a thorn-bush.
Adolin took a deep breath. “My father finally persuaded Ialai Sadeas to speak with me. Father hopes she’ll have some clues about her husband’s death.”
“You sound less optimistic.”
“I don’t like her, Shallan. She’s strange.”
Shallan opened her mouth, but he cut her off.
“Not strange like you,” he said. “Strange… bad strange. She’s always weighing everything and everyone she meets. She’s never treated me as anything other than a child. Will you go with me?”
“Sure. How much time do I have?”
“How much do you need?”
Shallan looked down at herself, huddled in her blankets, frizzy hair tickling her chin. “A lot.”
“Then we’ll be late,” Adolin said, standing up. “It’s not like her opinion of me could get any worse. Meet me at Sebarial’s sitting room. Father wants me to take some reports from him on commerce.”
“Tell him the booze in the market is good.”
“Sure.” Adolin glanced again at the empty jug of Horneater white, then shook his head and left.
An hour later, Shallan presented herself—bathed, makeup done, hair somewhat under control—to Sebarial’s sitting room. The chamber was larger than her room, but notably, the doorway out onto the balcony was enormous, taking up half the wall.
Everyone was out on the wide balcony, which overlooked the field below. Adolin stood by the railing, lost to some contemplation. Behind him, Sebarial and Palona lay on cots, their backs exposed to the sun, getting massages.
A flight of Horneater servants massaged, tended coal braziers, or stood dutifully with warmed wine and other conveniences. The air, particularly in the sun, wasn’t as chilly as it had been most other days. It was almost pleasant.
Shallan found herself caught between embarrassment—this plump, bearded man wearing only a towel was the highprince—and outrage. She’d just taken a cold bath, pouring ladles of water on her own head while shivering. She’d considered that a luxury, as she hadn’t been required to fetch the water herself.
“How is it,” Shallan said, “that I am still sleeping on the floor, while you have cots right here.”
“Are you highprince?” Sebarial mumbled, not even opening his eyes.
“No. I’m a Knight Radiant, which I should think is higher.”
“I see,” he said, then groaned in pleasure at the masseuse’s touch, “and so you can pay to have a cot carried in from the warcamps? Or do you still rely on the stipend I give you? A stipend, I’ll add, that was supposed to pay for your help as a scribe for my accounts—something I haven’t seen in weeks.”
“She did save the world, Turi,” Palona noted from Shallan’s other side. The middle-aged Herdazian woman also hadn’t opened her eyes, and though she lay chest-down, her safehand was tucked only halfway under a towel.
“See, I don’t think she saved it, so much as delayed its destruction. It’s a mess out there, my dear.”
Nearby, the head masseuse—a large Horneater woman with vibrant red hair and pale skin—ordered a round of heated stones for Sebarial. Most of the servants were probably her family. Horneaters did like to be in business together.
“I will note,” Sebarial said, “that this Desolation of yours is going to undermine years of my business planning.”
“You can’t possibly blame me for that,” Shallan said, folding her arms.
“You did chase me out of the warcamps,” Sebarial said, “even though they survived quite well. The remnants of those domes shielded them from the west. The big problem was the parshmen, but those have all cleared out now, marching toward Alethkar. So I plan to go back and reclaim my land there before others seize it.” He opened his eyes and glanced at Shallan. “Your young prince didn’t want to hear that—he worries I will stretch our forces too thin. But those warcamps are going to be vital for trade; we can’t leave them completely to Thanadal and Vamah.”
Great. Another problem to think about. No wonder Adolin looked so distracted. He’d noted they’d be late to visiting Ialai, but didn’t seem particularly eager to be on the move.
“You be a good Radiant,” Sebarial told her, “and get those other Oathgates working. I’ve prepared quite the scheme for taxing passage through them.”
“Callous.”
“Necessary. The only way to survive in these mountains will be to tax the Oathgates, and Dalinar knows it. He put me in charge of commerce. Life doesn’t stop for a war, child. Everyone will still need new shoes, baskets, clothing, wine.”
“And we need massages,” Palona added. “Lots of them, if we’re going to have to live in this frozen wasteland.”
“You two are hopeless,” Shallan snapped, walking across the sunlit balcony to Adolin. “Hey. Ready?”
“Sure.” She and Adolin struck out through the hallways. Each of the eight highprincedoms’ armies in residence at the tower had been granted a quarter of the second or third level, with a few barracks on the first level, leaving most of that level reserved for markets and storage.
Of course, not even the first level had been completely explored. There were so many hallways and bizarre tangents—hidden sets of rooms tucked away behind everything else. Maybe eventually each highprince would rule his quarter in earnest. For now, they occupied little pockets of civilization within the dark frontier that was Urithiru.
Exploration on the upper levels had been completely halted, as they no longer had Stormlight to spare in working the lifts.
They left Sebarial’s quarter, passing soldiers and an intersection with painted arrows on the floor leading to various places, such as the nearest privy. The guards’ checkpoint didn’t look like a barricade, but Adolin had pointed out the boxes of rations, the bags of grain, set in a specific way before the soldiers. Anyone rushing this corridor from the outside would get tangled in all of that, plus face pikemen beyond.
The soldiers nodded to Adolin, but didn’t salute him, though one did bark an order to two men playing cards in a nearby room. The fellows stood up, and Shallan was startled to recognize them. Gaz and Vathah.
“Thought we’d take your guards today,” Adolin said.
My guards. Right. Shallan had a group of soldiers made up of deserters and despicable murderers. She didn’t mind that part, being a despicable murderer herself. But she also had no idea what to do with them.
They saluted her lazily. Vathah, tall and scruffy. Gaz, short with a single brown eye, the other socket covered by a patch. Adolin had obviously already briefed them, and Vathah sauntered out to guard them in the front, while Gaz lingered behind.
Hoping they were far enough away not to hear, Shallan took Adolin by the arm.
“Do we need guards?” she whispered.
“Of course we do.”
“Why? You’re a Shardbearer. I’m a Radiant. I think we’ll be fine.”
“Shallan, being guarded isn’t always about safety. It’s about prestige.”
“I’ve got plenty. Prestige is practically leaking from my nose these days, Adolin.”
“That’s not what I meant.” Adolin leaned down, whispering. “This is for them. You don’t need guards, maybe, but you do need an honor guard. Men to be honored by their position. It’s part of the rules we play by—you get to be someone important, and they get to share in it.”
“By being useless.”
“By being part of what you’re doing,” Adolin said. “Storms, I forget how new you are to all this. What have you been doing with these men?”
“Letting them be, mostly.”
“What of when you need them?”
“I don’t know if I will.”
“You will,” Adolin said. “Shallan, you’re their commander. Maybe not their military commander, as they’re a civil guard, but it amounts to the same thing. Leave them idle, make them assume they’re inconsequential, and you’ll ruin them. Give them something important to do instead, work they’ll be proud of, and they’ll serve you with honor. A failed soldier is often one that has been failed.”
She smiled.
“What?”
“You sound like your father,” she said.
He paused, then looked away. “Nothing wrong with that.”
“I didn’t say there was. I like it.” She held his arm. “I’ll find something to do with my guards, Adolin. Something useful. I promise.”
Gaz and Vathah didn’t seem to think the duty was all that important, from the way they yawned and slouched as they walked, holding out oil lamps, spears at their shoulders. They passed a large group of women carrying water, and then some men carrying lumber to set up a new privy. Most made way for Vathah; seeing a personal guard was a cue to step to the side.
Of course, if Shallan had really wanted to exude importance, she’d have taken a palanquin. She didn’t mind the vehicles; she’d used them extensively in Kharbranth. Maybe it was the part of Veil inside of her, though, that made her resist Adolin whenever he suggested she order one. There was an independence to using her own feet.
They reached the stairwell up, and at the top, Adolin dug in his pocket for a map. The painted arrows weren’t all finished up here. Shallan tugged his arm and pointed the way down a tunnel.
“How can you know that so easily?” he said.
“Don’t you see how wide those strata are?” she asked, pointing to the wall of the corridor. “It’s this way.”
He tucked away his map and gestured for Vathah to lead the way. “Do you really think I’m like my father?” Adolin said softly as they walked. There was a worried sense to his voice.
“You are,” she said, pulling his arm tight. “You’re just like him, Adolin. Moral, just, and capable.”
He frowned.
“What?”
“Nothing.”
“You’re a terrible liar. You’re worried you can’t live up to his expectations, aren’t you?”
“Maybe.”
“Well you have, Adolin. You have lived up to them in every way. I’m certain Dalinar Kholin couldn’t hope for a better son, and… storms. That idea bothers you.”
“What? No!”
Shallan poked Adolin in the shoulder with her freehand. “You’re not telling me something.”
“Maybe.”
“Well, thank the Almighty for that.”
“Not… going to ask what it is?”
“Ash’s eyes, no. I’d rather figure it out. A relationship needs some measure of mystery.”
Adolin fell silent, which was all well and good, because they were approaching the Sadeas section of Urithiru. Though Ialai had threatened to relocate back to the warcamps, she’d made no such move. Likely because there was no denying that this city was now the seat of Alethi politics and power.
They reached the first guard post, and Shallan’s two guards pulled up close to her and Adolin. They exchanged hostile glares with the soldiers in forest-green-and-white uniforms as they were allowed past. Whatever Ialai Sadeas thought, her men had obviously made up their minds.
It was strange how much difference a few steps could make. In here, they passed far fewer workers or merchants, and far more soldiers. Men with dark expressions, unbuttoned coats, and unshaved faces of all varieties. Even the scribes were diff rent—more makeup, but sloppier clothing. It felt like they’d stepped from law into disorder. Loud voices echoed down hallways, laughing raucously. The stripes painted to guide the way were on the walls here rather than the floor, and the paint had been allowed to drip, spoiling the strata. They’d been smeared in places by men who had walked by, their coats brushing the still-wet paint.
The soldiers they passed all sneered at Adolin.
“They feel like gangs,” Shallan said softly, looking over her shoulder at one group.
“Don’t mistake them,” Adolin said. “They march in step, their boots are sturdy, and their weapons well maintained. Sadeas trained good soldiers. It’s just that where Father used discipline, Sadeas used competition. Besides, here, looking too clean will get you mocked. You can’t be mistaken for a Kholin.”
She’d hoped that maybe, now that the truth about the Desolation had been revealed, Dalinar would have an easier time of uniting the highprinces. Well, that obviously wasn’t going to happen while these men blamed Dalinar for Sadeas’s death.
They eventually reached the proper rooms and were ushered in to confront Sadeas’s wife. Ialai was a short woman with thick lips and green eyes. She sat in a throne at the center of the room.
Standing beside her was Mraize, one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods.
Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC
These are awesome, but I am ready for the book!
Glad I woke up early (by accident) for new chapters!
I know I cannot drop work yet and have to wait, and still I couldn’t resist counting the minutes on my computer clock just to see who we have this time. Like a kid waiting for Christmas :)
Can’t wait for the whole book
Why are all the Kaladin chapters so darned short?! It’s infuriating!
Top ten! Hi, Joe Buck!
Hi
Wondering if this is a parallel to Dalinar’s feelings?
Yeah, I think so!
The Dalinar chapter was hilarious, literally just stopped and laughed when I finished it, …
He killed the damn assassin just so he could get a knife to eat his pork steak LOL
The epigraphs are starting to get frustrating in how coy they are playing. 21 chapters and not one piece of information other than that Jasnah wrote them.
Also, the recent chapters have skewed towards Shallan in weight alot. I wouldn’t mind, except that so far Kaladin’s arc is the most interesting by far – and it’s also the shortest!
Oh, my. Mraize and Ialai together can’t mean anything good.
There’s a reading of this Dalinar flashback on YouTube, and now I can finally say what I’ve been wanting to go months: It’s really bittersweet to see younger Sadeas and Ialai paling around with the Kholin brothers and Navani. Sadeas was / is still a bastard, but I feel sorry for Dalinar, knowing about his sudden and inevitable betrayal. And Ialai is kind of cool, ignoring propriety. But I do get the sense that almost everyone is making fun of Dalinar here, whether it’s in good fun or not.
And oh god, Kaladin. I’m starting to really worry about you. His storyline being fed to us crumbs isn’t helping.
I can’t even think about Shallan’s chapter coherently because Mraize just showed up. I was not expecting that!
…Well. Have fun, Shallan.
Was Sadeas’ camp always like this, and was Kaladin just used to lower standards, or have things gotten worse now that Sadeas is dead? And if they are, is it because Ialai can’t control the soldiers, of is it because this suits her better? She seems to be in open alliance with Mraize, though I wonder if he has a more ‘respectable’ cover in the warcamps.
If he does, I hope Ialai knows the truth. The Ialai – Mraize – Shallan – Adolin conflict is going to be very interesting. :) It seems Dalinar’s high expectations are weighing on Adolin quite a bit.
And Kaladin! Please, get longer chapters, I love how he just can’t stop helping people, and I hope this storyline won’t end with him leaving because he’s afraid a fight is inevitable.
@@@@@ 10. Are we even sure that Jasnah wrote them? I know a lot of people have theorized about it, and it could fit, but there’s no confirmation yet, as far as I’m aware.
My thoughts in no specific order:
– I love this Dalinar flashback sequence. This is the fourth time I read it, a few small changes here and there. I’ll admit having gone quickly through it this time around. I should re-read later on.
– One of the changes I noted was Brandon mentioned how Alethi deal with recalcitrant Higprinces: they do not assassinate them. They scheme to duel with them (and kill them) or they try to kill them in battle. I thought this was an important piece of information: it gives us an inkling as to how people may react to Adolin murdering Sadeas.
– I have always loved Evi entrance into the room, with her long golden hair.
– This flashback actually made me dislike Navani: what a haugthy woman, looking down on poor Evi being forced to adjust to a foreign culture. Saying she is vapid after one meeting is harsh.
_ Toh and Evi always made me think of Adolin: genuine and honest. Easily impressed by things.
– What the heck happened to Toh? Why is the uncle never mentioned? Did he die? When? How?
– Dalinar suffered an arranged wedding to secure a Shardplate: it gives an all new meaning to his insistance Adolin marries out of love.
– Kaladin chapters feel like interludes to me, a distraction from the main narrative. While we can see the inkling of his moral dilemma (he needs to differientiate in between his allies and his ennemies), which is interesting in itself, I don’t find his actual story particularly engaging.
– This has nothing to do with Kaladin: I love how Kaladin is written so far.
– So Shallan did get drunk despite the stormlight: this will make some speak nasty things about her.
– More Shallan and Adolin, I really love these two together.
– They are both saying how they love talking to each other, even if it is odd. They cracked me up as their teasing gets more and more personal. Who ever said they couldn’t banter together?
– On the day Adolin will not look perfectly groomed, I will worry for him. A lot.
– No mating!
– Shallan didn’t tell Adolin about her findings, though she did not have the occasion.
– Shallan and Adolin are GOOD together, they work, but I know many readers will further argue on how ill-fitted they are and how Shallan cannot tell the truth to Adolin.
– Shallan doesn’t press Adolin for answers.
– Adolin fearing not living up to his father’s expectations and saying there is nothing wrong in sounding like his father literally broke my heart. He knows what he did and yet he clings to the idea he might still make his father proud. Sad Adolin :-(
– Adolin is trying so hard to be like Dalinar…
– Sebrarial thinks of himself first.
– Adolin is afraid of Ialai: she treats him like a child, he wants Shallan with him.
– Mraize. Need I say more? Theories wanting the Ghostbloods to have a hand into the copycat murders seem more probable. I didn’t believe it, but the story is now hinting for it.
– Adolin and Shallan will get in trouble. Together. But not for the same reason.
To the person who recommended Worm by Wildbow a few weeks back on some previous chapters… Oof. That was, that was good. Thank you.
Dalinar, just a simple man looking for a utensil.
…and Pattern with a “no mating!” will never cease to make me laugh XD
Ah. Mraize and Ialai are in league of some fashion. Didn’t see that coming, and I can’t really tell where things will go with that. Shallan recognizes him, obviously, but Adolin wouldn’t. It also seems unlikely that she’d tell Adolin about him, she’ll just be mostly useless during this meeting because eep Mraize is standing right there.
I had heard the Dalinar flashback read at a signing, but still hilarious! Well done. I hope that Dalinar gets a little less broody and a regains a little more of his spirit of fun over the course of the series.
Is the “Mother Cultivation” reference from Shallan the first indication that the Vorin have a place for Cultivation in their theology? I wonder what her canonical relationship to the Almighty (Honor) is in their faith.
I was getting to the end of the third chapter thinking it was a bit quiet this week, interesting, funny call-back one liner from Pattern but not as many revelations as last week then I read the last line and WHAM.
Interested more and more by the yellow spren and the revelation that Kaladin’s waifs and stray still don’t hear the song or attune to the rhythms.
I get the feeling that I’d read the Dalinar chapter or at least some part(s) of it previously, including the lost knife and assassin bit, is this possible?
I love although I hate the old Dalinar. His innocent intensity is just great.
Kaladin…just KALADIN! His chapters are going to tear me apart. I would have the same struggle he’s having, and I don’t know what the answer is either.
Mraize. This is going to be great. I get the feeling some blackmailing is about to begin, in spite of what he told Shallan before. Why did it have to end now??
“Ash’s eyes, no.”
New curse word?
Am I the only one who starts thinking that the format of these starting chapters – every chapter from new PoV, is because BS planned for the “3 chapters every week” pre-release by Tor?
Folks have noticed that Mraize and Braize are derived from the name “Rayse”, right?
Tells us a bit more about who our protagonists are facing, eh?
@@@@@ 13 Gepeto. I definitely agree with you about Navani and Evi. She’s clearly not a native speaker, and we don’t know if women from Rira get the same amount of training in politics as they do in Alethkar (maybe they don’t split roles by gender as Alethi do, and Evi simply specialized in something else). She also seems to be left-handed. She basically ended up without her only family member, in a strange land, had to do complex tasks with only one hand (and her off-hand as well) while being interrogated in a different language.
She’s probably smarter than she seems. I also agree that Adolin could have gotten his ‘mentally direct’ way of thinking from her (he got it from both parents, probably), since Navani seems to think Evi is unintelligent even after knowing her a long time. While directness may be ‘appropriate’ for a man, Alethi seem to hold women to different standards. They should be able to talk in circles around a subject.
Brandon has said something like that in a WoB once, I believe. Shallan’s sense of humor, and I guess more lighteyes’ sense of humor are based around this.. ‘trading of witty comments’. If you can’t do that, even if you’re very intelligent (or just normally intelligent), you’d come of as stupid.
Curse this print medium. This last chapter needed a “DUN DUN DUUUN”
Nice to see that Syl can predict an upcoming highstorm. I am so ready for stormlight to be replenished so oathgates can be opened, Kaladin can move around freely, and people can get back to the business they need to be about.
Did Dalinar see one of the unmade in the highstorm (“a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs”)? Then he made a “rude gesture” to it, nice. I’m having fun reading young Dalinar.
Is it possible that Ialai is a member of the Ghostbloods? Can’t wait to see how Shallan handles this.
@17: Unfettered II contained all of Dalinars flashbacks
Another set of good chapters! A few quick thoughts:
Young Dalinar is quite the terror, but he’s rather interesting to read about. I’m guessing not too many people will walk through a Highstorm. I want to know more about the spindly legged figure he saw there! Also, our first glimpse of Evi! That’s definitely one way to impress your future wife. But we never found out if Dalinar finds his favorite knife with the whitespine handle!
Kaladin chapter was brief, but effective again. It’s cool that he’s teaching them skills, but the parshman does have a point and is rather justifiable in his anger. I’m curious to see how this is resolved. Syl can sense when Highstorms will appear? Makes sense.
Adolin and Shallan continue to be rather adorable. I appreciate their comfort with one another and the ease with which they share and confide (to a certain degree, anyway). Finally, we get to see what happened to Vathah and Gaz! Adolin gave good advice regarding Shallan’s guards; I hope she finds a way to make them consistently useful. And finally, Ialai with Mraize! That’s how you end a chapter
Every Tuesday I sit and refresh obsessively, waiting for the next round of chapters. Thank you Tor! First time commenting, yet to read. Hope you all enjoy it!
Young Dalinar was a LOT more simple. I mean, I guess he has 20 years to level up his intellect, but he certainly comes off a huge amount more thoughtful and deliberate than his younger “stereotypical Klingon” self.
So I guess Rira’s issue with Dalinar is that he has Toh to them? /rimshot
Storms but Dalinar was such a barbarian. My first reaction was too bad he stabbed the assassin. Then, ew. At least he washed the blade off in very strong wine.
Poor Kaladin, getting caught between two imperatives: rescuing slaves and saving the world.
Oh, ShAdolin, you are adorable.
@28 Boo! Boo!
Dalinar from the first chapter reminds me of Mat from Wheel of Time. Just precious!
That was hilarious @28.
@17: Yes, this Dalinar flashback has been floating around for about 2 years. Sanderson was reading it during his Calamity book tour. So there are videos of it up on YouTube and other places. It has changed a bit in the last 2 years, but is a great piece of comedy. And as @25 said, it was published in Unfetterd II.
Either Alice or myself so wanted to call this chapter: In Want of a Knife.
As a play on Jane Austin and the feel of this chapter, but oh well – Subtle Art of Diplomacy works too.
@26: Gaz – Yep, when I was reading the book, in the Veil chapter I had a comment along the lines of “Where are Shallan’s guards?” Then, poof! There at least two of them were. Just as I was starting to miss them.
@23: Dun Dun Dun! Is right!
@28: Toh! LOL!!!! Groan… Still worth it.
There’s a typo here- it should be “different”
And what am I supposed to do for the rest of the week now? Damnation. I can hardly bear this. I NEED that book.
And now we’ve got Mraize, of all people, for Shallan to deal with. I hope Ialai is not part of the Ghostbloods, however, otherwise why didn’t she have moved against Amaram? Maybe they’re just temporarily allied, or maybe Mraize simply has his own purposes.
@33: Many of those types of typos happen when Tor copies from the PDF to the post it on the website.
Why they are copying from the PDF rather than the other types of files they have access too is a whole other issue I have no answer for.
I just checked, this line is fine in the book. The line break happens in a different spot.
We can only guess what, but something interesting is definitely coming in the next Shallon chapter, I wonder if she will be punished in some way for using the ghostbloods symbol in such a careless way
Curses!!Another short Kaladin chapter and he still hasn’t reached Kholinar.Why is this dope wasting his time when the King needs to get back there quick?!
Argh. Just before I got through the last chapter I started thinking, “Why didn’t Shallan tell Dalinar about the whole situation with Mraize when it came up?” Hey—while I was trying to figure out some stuff I used my power and spied on a group, now they’ve got my brothers. Can you help me find them?
It seems like she would have gone looking for them before she would start investigating murders, etc.
Also it seems like we should have had a moment when Adolin or Shallan wanted to bring up Kal also being a Radiant but then felt awkward/jealous/insecure about it and decided they just wouldn’t talk about him.
This may be the first time reading something Sanderson wrote and feeling like a character isn’t acting the way they’ve been written in past books.
I’m not disappointed, just kind of confused.
I was amused by Kal’s comment that the parshman was being poetic. I like where this might be going in reference to art form.
I also would have thought Adolin would have mentioned his Bridge 4 parshman buddy. It *is* kind of a common thing people do… “Hey… I don’t have bias; one of my best friends is a parshman.”
I love how Pattern has such dedication to his job!
“No mating,” Pattern buzzed softly on the wall.
@28 I feel like I missed a great (awful) joke. Could somebody explain that one to me?
@39 I can guarantee that Pattern will show up with whoever Shallan marries and will be like “Is it OK for you to mate now?” right when they’re getting hot and heavy. Just saying.
@38 you think shallan is acting out of character? She’s always been one to hide secrets. And Mraize doesn’t ‘have’ her brothers, he’s bringing them. He told her it wasn’t blackmail. So it’s not like she has anything to look for; they just haven’t arrived yet. Until perhaps this moment. The Kaladin thing has some merit, but at the same time none of their conversations have really taken a turn toward Kaladin or his powers, so it doesn’t seem odd to me that he hasn’t been brought up.
Good chapters!! I’ll be back….
I can’t wait for the next book to come pu
OMG what is Mraize doing there!?!
TheoryCrafter@40: I think you should read the Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan in the meantime — you’ll get it.
Loving this re-read. The Dalinar flashback coming off last week’s revelations just works so well.
@@@@@5, @@@@@ 10: I don’t mind the Kaladin chapters being short. We have the real detective work being done in Urithiru, so there is not a lot for him to do. He had his book and his growth. There is still room for change, but it is time for Dalinar (and Shallan a bit still) to let the consequences really hit them.
@@@@@33, @@@@@35, @@@@@others: The typos may very well be intentional, as a way to deter skimmers and lazy thieves that copy the pages from the web-page to compile them into the ‘book’ for resale or filesharing. The intentional typos give publishers hints to where the copies came from. There was a project among many of the major publishers to intentionally put in grammatical, punctuation, or spelling typos, randomly for each e-book to see who is the first one that started sharing an e-book. The typos in the posted chapters so far follow this strategy. Everyone knows that diff rent should be different. But if copies in the wild have the same typo, Tor knows where it comes from.
why am I not surprised that the ghostbloods and Sadeas were involved?
@22: Navani is a character I have never been able to garner much sympathy for. I find her attitude, in a general manner, very off-putting: she is very judgemental and dismissive.
I have a very strong dislike of those teaming up with others to bad mouth someone, to attack their thoughts without giving them the chance to defend themselves. Navani Kholin thus comes across as a bully within this scene and it rubs me off the wrong way.
I am thinking what Adolin got from his mother is his innate sense of right/wrong, his hate of bullies and his natural inclination to not stand up for it: Evi was described as nice, never bullying anyone, never playing games. This sounds a lot like Adolin whom I think will definitely war within himself at to which man he wants to be: his father or himself.
I agree Alethi have a very restrictive way of perceiving intelligence as the ability to say quips hardly is the only benchmark by which it ought to be evaluated.
@26: I have to disagree with you: it is a horrible way to end a chapter! Now I have to wait three more weeks to read what is about to happen. Mean Brandon.
On Young Dalinar: Out-of-curiosity, I wonder how many readers revise their evaluation of Adolin based on his father’s portrayal as a young man? Theories wanting Adolin to be “another Blackthorn in the making” or being “the same as his father once was” have always been popular. I personally thought young Dalinar, as depicted within this chapter, has little in common with his son: they are about the same age, but their behavior differs very strongly. I am curious to hear if it challenged the perception for other readers.
It sounds to me that Parshman did not have the will or the mental capability to survive before their awakening. So the Alethi had a choice to let them all die or to take care of them. It is not hard to see how that turns into ownership and trading them and using them to be productive. Could the Parshman even make the choice to breed or did they have to be told? Could they even take care of their own children besides nursing them? Maybe the Parshman should be thanking the Alethi for keeping them alive all these centuries.
@49 The epigraphs in WoR (I think) imply that the slave form was inflicted on the parshmen, possibly by the Knights Radiance. There’s no reason for slaves to be grateful to those who enslave them.
The strata on the walls gets mentioned every week. Is it possible the strata is similar to the cymatics of the other cities??
@50 – We don’t know how the Parshman got stuck in slave form. We have only guesses.
I’d like to know what the voidspren has been telling the parshmen re: their history and how they ended up in that semi-vegetative state. In which, BTW, they seemingly couldn’t have cared for themselves. Not that it excuses slavery, of course. But it very much seems that reaching them and imparting some sort of independant (of humans and voidspren) history to parshmen would be a job for surviving dissident parshendi and hopefully Eshonai and whoever else manages to de-storm themselves. Though, I’d think that Kaladin could have given Sah a good reason why he shouldn’t be so eager to fight the humans if a chance exists to solve it all amicably – his daughter and other kids.
And actually, putting parshmen into the same legal framework as human slaves, complete with all their back-wages due could provide an elegant solution to the problem. They’d immediately become far too expensive to keep, not to mention that their inability to disobey and fight back was one of the things that made them so valuable in the first place.
I also seriously puzzled why everybody at Urithiru is seemingly unconcerned about parshmen from the warcamps heading to Alethkar. And, sadly, it seems that Thude’s group didn’t manage to interecept them, like I hoped. But they are starting to hear rythms, if weakly – which could be both good and bad, of course.
But will somebody please remember that Rlain and Sigzil could provide crucial pieces of the puzzle re: Listener Forms, bits of their history that parshendi retain and insight into views and motivations of other human peoples and their rulers respectively? I am looking at Renarin, who has been serving with them in the Bridge Four, after all, and still has to demonstrate his alleged intelligence, which has been mostly an informed attribute so far.
And it is a somewhat inconsequential detail – but why on earth _wouldn’t_ stormlight heal menstrual cramps? Seeing that even iRL not everybody has them and even those who do, don’t have them every time?
And how stupid was it for Shallan to say that Adolin and her as a Radiant and a Shardbearer didn’t need bodyguards? Did she forget that they are investigating a murder of a Shardbearer? Or that she has ostensibly seen a Radiant killed (Jasnah)? Or that she is low on stormlight and can be easily killed once she runs out? While Adolin can be shot by a ranged weapon or ambushed? I mean, guards are necessary as a warning system, if nothing else, no matter how bad-ass you are. Speaking of which – her unguarded balcony with a convenient stair is dangerous.
Shallan is remembering more about her stormlight use in childhood – I bet that there are still some important pieces missing, which will come up in this volume.
And, of course, Mraize apparently being some kind of ally of Ialai’s. Dun, dun, dun….
Oh, poor young Navani is adorable with how obviously she’s fawning over Dalanar, and trying to make Evi look like an unsuitable match. Interesting that Gavilar doesn’t seem to notice, but I bet Ialai noticed for sure. I wonder if she ends up using that against them at some point in the flashbacks, since it’s obviously too late to matter in the current timeline.
I laughed when young Dalanar growled at the server who tried to take his steak. He acts and talks like a brute in this scene, even when he’s trying not to. I wonder what Navani sees in him. Does she just prefer the bad-boy prince?
Good thing Dalanar got the deep violet wine – higher alcohol content for greater knife-cleaning power!
Is it just me or do the chapter headings seem too… self indulgent and naively introspective to belong to Jasna?
@37 Shaun
Maybe because he could potentially help prevent a race of people from becoming voidbringers? I think it’s a worthwhile endeavor to attempt to make peace with them rather than letting the voidspren lead them to becoming the agents of Odium, so they are allies rather than enemies.
@49, I don’t think there is ever a reason for a slave to be grateful to those who enslaved them. They have been forced into labor and treated as objects to be bought and sold. Even as injured animal who can’t take care of itself should be treated with more care.
“In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves.” Kaladin Stormblessed Ender Wiggin
I appreciate Dalinar’s perspective on the causes of the war. “We looked at this place here, this kingdom, and we realized, ‘Hey, all these people have stuff .’ And we figured… hey, maybe we should have that stuff. So we took it.”
Once you strip away the fancy justifications, that’s basically the heart of Alethi philosophy. Want. Take. Have.
@50 If we are going to blame the ancient humans for inflicting that dull state on the Parshmen, we might as well blame the Parshmen for having tried to destroy humanity. We can either choose to ignore both or to consider both in order to remain consistent.
Re: The epigraphs –
Today’s 2 don’t appear to add much more of substance to the overall preface by themselves, nor do they appear to give us a strong clue on the author. Assuming the epigraphs are being released in the actual printed order of the preface (which we technically have no guarantee is what is happening, but seems a safe assumption), if all 18 are read together, I get a feeling that the focus continues to be on the author themselves, and not on someone else. Basically, I’m less inclined to think that the author is writing about someone else as Oathbringer, but is instead writing about themselves as the Oathbringer (pretentious as that may be).
These quotes seem to support that:
The tone of this preface reads to me as someone who is trying to explain/justify their actions and experiences, not someone else’s. So, based just on the preface (so far) it seems very likely that the author of the book appears to writing (or dictating) about themselves.
So to me, the question is: which of the characters that we have come across so far would more likely be labeled as “Oathbringer?” Those candidates are more likely to be the author (either directly, or via dictation).
From the blurb of the book, it seems like kaladin will be stuck outside of Urithiru most of this book as it describes him working with the Voidbringers throughout his quest to warn his family. I for one really appreciate the social commentary about slavery – Sah has every reason to be angry that the decision on whether his group should remain free seemingly rests solely on the mercy of the Alethi. Very thoughtful and powerful dialogue between he and Kaladin on this point, and I can only hope that Kaladin realizes that Sah’s group has some power and agency to make their own decisions.
I have a really hard time reading how badly Dalinar pines after Navani. Though I love their relationship present-day, it’s just uncomfortable to read from a man whom I know is so honorable ‘now.’
I love that we are getting a heavy and equal dose of the POVs all together. I may subscribe to the theory that it was written this way with the pre release chapters in mind.
@56 – “I don’t think there is ever a reason for a slave to be grateful to those who enslaved them.”
Hmmm, close minded much? Szeth seemed thankful to the masters that did not abuse him.
Choice between death or torture free slavery?
How about the master that let you free? Could there be some thanks in that?
Do you think Shallan’s slaves are thankful?
Does Shallan get squires? If she does I’m thinking Gaz and Vathah or Adolin. Also I love that Adolin seems impressed about the horneater wine she drank.
The worst part of the Parshman slavery? It’s probably unintentionally cruel. (for the most part)
The slave-form was somehow imparted on the parshmen–possibly by forcible eviction/revocation of whatever voidspren was pairing with them at the end of the Desolation. Humanity, with everything in shambles around them, found a pliable workforce that could aid the rebuilding and maybe needed help surviving themselves.
Of course, one or two generations removed, the parshmen become less “people” and more “servants” and then “property”–the root term for “robot” stemming from owned serfs used for labor is not an accident. I don’t think they could even speak or exhibit much in terms of sapience, so its easy to fall into that trap; this is Just The Way Things Are and literal biotruths (in this case). The origins of the parshmen are forgotten–or maybe suppressed by the Vorin church–so that they were once even capable of independent thought and action becomes a foreign notion. Humans have no clue that the parshmen are screaming internally at their treatment.
So now, thousands of years later, the parshmen have deep psychological wounds and grudges to bear–justifiably. Humans are probably the unwitting victim/instrument of the divine embodiment of Hatred. It makes sense from that point of view–plant the seeds for a deep bitter hate so the next time he brings the Desolation his forces are far more motivated and personally engaged. And use your enemies’ worst impulses as a weapon against them in forging that enmity.
Odium is probably an artist at hate now, and he has such sights to show everyone.
@61 – Dalinar is actually being pretty standup and honorable. He pined for Navani before she married Gavilar, so the feeling predated her marriage. He’s still smitten, but he’s actively removing himself/keeping himself in check. He knows Nothing Good would come of it but he can’t help how he feels. For a guy with as little impulse control as he seemed back then, that’s actually pretty laudable. Or at least, nothing to condemn him over.
@62 – Doing the decent thing is never a cause for celebration. It’s the bare minimum that should be expected. Being grateful for being set free is like being stabbed and then handed a bandage; should you thank the person for addressing the issue they caused?
In this case, the fact that the parshmen were literally biologically locked into a limited capacity complicates things somewhat, but that still doesn’t excuse it. Also it would be interesting to know which came first–the humans enslaving the parshmen, or the institution of slavery adapting to the inclusion of the parshmen?
Keep in mind Navani knew the plan was to marry Dalinar and Evi, and that would have clouded her initial opinion of Evi, given that she even back then had feelings for Dalinar
@26 re: “the parshman does have a point and is rather justifiable in his anger”
I disagree. I get where he is coming from, but he couldn’t be more wrong. You see while he may still be taking orders from an Alethi, the beneficiary of his labor has shifted from the Alethi giving the commands to the parshmen doing the work. His resentment towards Kaladin is completely misplaced; it only serves to keep him down with fewer resources and fewer of his needs being met.
It’s like how bitterness typically hurts the victim more than it does the offender (i.e. the source of the bitterness). Anybody else could see Kaladin as a helpful source of free and valuable information. The parshman – being self-absorbed in his own grievances and emotional woundedness – can’t accept Kaladin’s help or even take advantage of his information & tutelage.
Today’s chapters most appropriately end with: DUN DUN DUUUUN
I realized today – there’s a certain point in each of the Stormlight books (and this probably applies to all of Brandon’s books) where something changes for me. When I start, I’m OK with reading a chapter or few each day, still enjoying it but not feeling overly rushed to read through…….then, suddenly, the book sinks its claws deep, and I’m addicted. I can hardly think about anything else, and every spare moment (plus some that shouldn’t be “spare”) is devoted to devouring the book. I felt that change occurring today, after Kaladin’s chapter. It was painful to know that I wouldn’t get another fix for a whole week, maybe even two if his next chapter is four or more away. Kaladin’s story in particular is so intriguing to me. Right now, his plotline is my favorite, and his short chapters have been terrible on me…
I’m not sure anyone else mentioned this yet, but when Shallan comments that she could be stabbed through the chest and live, I thought that was curious. We all know that Jasnah is alive, but when said Shallan said that, I thought that maybe she would put together that Jasnah might still be alive.
adjbaker @49, that “logic” is very similar to what was used as a justification for the continued enslavement of POC here in the US. It doesn’t fly. The Alethi view and treat postrecreance Parshmen much as white folk viewed and treated POC before, during, and after the civil war. Your statement, and Kaladin’s struggles in this chapter, have a very “white savior” complex to them. Yes, I know Kaladin (and Alethi in general) are not “white”, let’s not go down that road.
Has it been revealed that the Parshendi have no hand in Slave-Form Parshmen?
I’m going to make a pridiction that Adolin is going to bring his shard blade “back to life”. I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I think that theirs some merit to it.
The Slavery issues in Stormlight are very similar and yet quite different from the Earth’s history of slavery. I think Brandon has stepped up the issues in a brilliant way. It can be challenging to present different sides to a conflict in such a compelling way. Too easily most ppl will just hammer out ‘their’ side and ignore other pesprectives.
1. We don’t really know yet who crippled the Parshmens’ minds. Likely it was a Radiant or Herald, but it is unclear.
2. The Voidbringers are slaves to Odium just as much. At least Eshonai became so. (I’m hoping/expecting her to become free of the voidspren controlling her). Which is better? to be a slave in one’s own mind to a being of dark hatred? or a slave to mental retardation in one’s one mind? Its a crappy choice either way, but thing the latter is a happier existence.
3. Whomever crippled the Listeners minds is either dead or an immortal. Blaming the Alethi as a whole is not just. Just as Kaladin blaming ALL lighteyes as a whole was not just. Its just a more tangible target for rage and hatred.
4. Parshmen’s minds had been crippled for so long, that no one knew they should be different. Sure, this type of excuse was used in American history of slavery. Such as “The black man is more beast, and needs domestication.” Ideas like that were spread around as an excuse trying to justify slavery.
However in Roshar, it was kinda true. The Listeners as a people were crippled. What if an entire race were mentally handicapped? They didn’t have the presence of mind to carry on their own survival? Maybe the maiming of their race was meant to kill them all but failed when some humans started using them as slaves instead.
Alethi barely met the Parshendi 6~7 years earlier. Not time for the right questions to be asked. If there had not been war between Alethi and Parshendi, then maybe the perspective amongst Alethi would have started to change. Maybe more questions into the nature of Parshmen would have been asked. Shallan tried asking the slaver’s (can’t remember how to write his name) parshment about freedom. She couldn’t pry meaningful interaction out of them. So what would we do today if such a puzzle presented itself? I think this is a fantastic discussion Brandon is provoking.
5. Between Slavery and Genocide which is better to suffer? Which is better to commit? Playing to the lesser evil is never fun, but that’s probably the situation they were in. Kill all the Voidbringers, be exterminated by them, or cripple and enslave them, or be enslaved by them.
I find it very intriguing that Sah is expressing so many similar feelings to Kaladin from the first two books, but also subtly different.
I think this is a fantastic discussion Brandon is provoking.
Mraize and the Ghostbloods mentality fits so well with Sadeas army, that I want to kick myself for not seeing it before the reveal. Well played Brandon! Brilliant foreshadowing!
Mraise’s appearance makes me wonder if Ialai was working with Mraise for a while now, and Mraise’s public face lived in Aladar’s camp. That would explain why Ialai was distracted when she and Sadeas realized Aladar was joining Dalanar’s expedition. At the time, I thought Ialai might have been romantically involved with someone in Aladar’s camp, but perhaps the valued relationship was professional instead.
@65 re: “Doing the decent thing is never a cause for celebration. It’s the bare minimum that should be expected. Being grateful for being set free is like being stabbed and then handed a bandage; should you thank the person for addressing the issue they caused?”
I disagree.
First, doing the decent thing should always be a cause for celebration! People don’t always make decent choices. If what you encourage/praise is what you get (and it often is), then if more people celebrated decent choices, the world would be a better and more decent place.
Second, expectations management is a big part of being happy. If you set your expectations a little lower, then it is easier for others to exceed your expectations. If you expect that others will most act in a self-serving manner and treat you with indifference (which is – sadly – frequently the case), then you will find a cause to celebrate decency in others. You will also be happy at the most appropriate time: when others treat you well/properly. Also, expecting others to do anything to make your life easier or more pleasant is the essence of entitlement. Entitled people are often angry because they are continuously reminded that nobody owes them anything, but they just won’t accept that to be true. They deal with the world as they think it ought to be instead of how it is; therefore, they miss out on a lot of stuff and life tends to pass them by.
Finally, regarding being stabbed and then handed a bandage, that line of reasoning only works on an individual level. Kaladin did not personally wound this parshman or his group. Yes, he may have indirectly benefited from that parshman’s labor, but he was not the one to inflict any injury on the parshman nor was he the one to subject the parshman to slavery in the first place. So, no, being grateful for being set free is not like being stabbed and then handed a bandage. I’d say that being set free is a frustrating experience, though. It’s something that every slave desires and fantasizes about, but the reality of being free is that you are now responsible for yourself. When you’ve never been taught to care for yourself, it’s easy to project your difficulties & frustration onto an external party. In this case, Kaladin was an easy target. Where would the parshman be if Kaladin took offense to his attitude and left the poor fellow to fend for himself? Generalizing the parshman’s righteous indignation and fury at having been enslaved to all Alethi is crem; it should be reserved for those who view him as property and those who (in the narrow sense of the words) facilitated/administered the enslavement of the parshmen (and not everyone who received some benefit from the institution).
Only those employing/owning the slaves could have done anything to change the slaves’ circumstances; those who bought products/services that were provided or subsidized by slave labor can hardly be blamed for doing so without a means to identify which products/services were tainted by slavery and without being offered an alternative. That goes double for those born into a world where enslaved parshment were normal and who expressed no dissatisfaction with their lot in life. Such people would have to be convinced that the parshmen had indeed been transformed to be the humans’ intellectual equals (as opposed to highly functioning beasts of burden).
All this stuff about the parshmen being bitter about their enslavement is throwing me a bit. After all, the Prologue tells us that, to some degree, the Parshendi agreed with the change.
“Your Majesty,” she said, daring to take his hand in hers. He couldn’t feel the rhythms. He didn’t know. “Please. We no longer worship those gods. We left them, abandoned them.”
“Ah, but this is for your good, and for ours.” He stood up. “We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours. Without them, we have no power. This world is trapped, Eshonai! Stuck in a dull, lifeless state of transition.”
[…] “Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed.”
And then the Parshendi kill him because they didn’t want that. Granted that they were upset when they learned how the parshmen were being treated, but they originally thought the Alethi were caring for them. That makes it sound like the parshmen really would have been helpless and died if not for some sort of intervention. I’m not saying that makes the enslavement right by any means, just pointing some stuff out ;)
But it makes me think, if the parshmen could remember why their minds were taken, they might agree with it.
@73 I agree that Mr. Sanderson has managed to provoke a conversation concerning slavery in a brilliant way.
I don’t agree that the length of time Parshmen had been enslaved is any type of justification. From this week’s reading, and in previous books, we can clearly see that the Alethi view any people that don’t strictly adhere to their culture as somehow lesser. This is especially true in the case of the Parshmen. Upon encountering Parshendi, the Alethi don’t have a moral crisis and reevaluate their treatment of the Parshmen. Instead, most immediately dismiss the Parshendi as savages.
Even upon more Alethi being exposed to Parshendi during the war at the Shattered Plains, their concern is about giving the larger Parshmen the idea of rebelling, of being free. So no. I completely disagree that the Alethi have any sort of justification or excuse.
Isn’t “give me liberty or give me death” a popular saying in the U.S.? I believe the Alethi elites would resonate with that ideology. Why wouldn’t the Parshmen/Parshendi/Voidbringers want the same? If the slave form was created as a result of the threat the Voidbringers presented, then it seems to me it would have been better to either leave them to fend for themselves in their non-threatening form, even if that resulted in their deaths, or to outright kill them all. This was a battle for survival, after all, as it seems diplomacy was not an option.
Just my opinions. I love the books. I need more Oathbringer crack, Tor. More please. Release the book now. You can have my money.
If Gavilar had made Dalinar “play” politics more when Dalinar was younger, he may have had an easier time countering Sadeas’ political maneuvers on the Shattered Plains. If Dalinar were more politically astute, the books would have unfolded differently. For one thing, Dalinar would not have found himself betrayed at the Battle of the Tower. As a result, Dalinar may also have not had to trade the Bridgemen for Oathbringer. If that trade never happens, then Bridge 4 and the other Bridgemen are a whole lot worse off.
Interesting. Dalinar opined that at the time of his flashback, he and his allies (including Sadeas) found assignations distasteful; not the Alethi way. Yet years later, Sadeas has no compunction against using assassins. Another sign that at least politically speaking, Sadeas is willing to evolve. (By political in this instance, I include assassination as a political weapon).
Nice bit of history. The ten princedoms are somehow descended from the Sunmaker’s descendants. How does that square up with the ability to change highlords?
What in Damnation was the gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs? Do those things commonly come out during highstorms. Or was it on a scouting mission to see Gavilar and/or Dalinar? Maybe Dalinar did not see anything. He was just drunk. Although nothing else to this point in Chapter 19 suggests he was seeing hallucinations.
I find it amazing how uncivilized Gavilar, Sadeas, Ialai, and Navani make Dalinar appear to be. He is not uncivilized. He is just from a different societal world as those four. They have been able to adapt. Dalinar, to this point in his life has not. He is a warrior, not a courtier.
Wow. Even back 30 odd years ago, Gavilar was listening to The Codes of War and The Way of Kings.
Why am I not surprised that it was Ialai who wondered about Evi’s sexual prowess? That statement seems to fit the character we saw in WoR.
I think the quote in the beginning of Chapter 20 is a red herring. I think Brandon wants us to remember Shallan eating men’s food (i.e. spicy food) during her earlier meal with Adolin. Thus, making it appear that Shallan is the author of Oathbringer. But I still think it could be Jasnah. Defying custom and eating men’s food (if only one time) is something that would be consistent with Jasnah’s character.
I think some of the other posters had it correct when discussing Kaladin’s last chapter. His next oath is going to have something to do with defending innocents among his enemy’s people. His enemy is those fighting Kaladin; not the innocents trying to weather the storm.
Even coming from a man, I like how Shallan despises how society treats a woman who is sick/has some pain versus a man who is sick/has some pain. And a great come back from Adolin.
Chapter 21 is like a SNL skit. Or (from what I have heard since I have never attended) a skit from Jordancon.
I did not understand Shallan’s joke about moral support. Would somebody explain that to me?
That was a surprise. I did not expect Mraize to have an association with Ialai. There a few possibilities. First, Ialail does not know that Mraize is the leader of the Ghostbloods. As Shallan has different personas so does Mraize. In one, he is an advisor to House Sadeas. Another persona is leader of the Ghostbloods. If this is the case, it will be interesting when how Mraize and Shallan interact. They both know each other, put their companions do not know that they know each other. In that case, they probably would not want the other to reveal their other persona to everybody. At least as of when they first came to Urithiru, Mraize still thought of Veil as a member of the Ghostbloods. In fact, he thought of Veil, rather than Shallan, as Shallan’s true persona.
The second persona is that Ialai is a member of the Ghostbloods. That would account for how well she gathered her information. If this is the case, I do not believe that Sadeas knew of this association. I did not get the impression that Sadeas would have cared for somebody like Mraize. Even though Mraize is refined, he is not among the Alethi upper elite. Shallan did not describe him as Alethi looking when she first met him. I got the impression (based upon Shallan’s observations) that Mraize is not a native Alethi.
The last scenario is that after Sadeas’ death, Mraize contacted Ialai and has now became a confidant of hers. I find this option the most unlikely as I cannot see Ialai as being one to trust someone who she just recently has met.
If I am correct (and Mraize is not a native Alethi), then I think my second scenario I laid out above is the most likely: Ialai has been a Ghostblood for a number of years, at least longer than the time period when WoK starts (some six years after Gavilar’s assassination). Moreover, Sadeas had no knowledge of Mraize’s involvement with the Ghostbloods. I also think that Mraize came to this meeting because he learned that Shallan would accompany Adolin.
Mraize and/or Ialai might think he can embarrass Shallan by telling Adolin of Shallan’s secret identity of Veil. I do not think this will work. Shallan has told Adolin some of her secrets. That she has gone undercover in some rougher areas. Adolin knows that she can create illusions so this will not come as a shock to him. In addition, I cannot think that Mraize would reveal Shallan’s other persona. I do not think Mraize would want to admit the existence to Adolin. A member of the ruling elite who has had no previous knowledge of the Ghostbloods and how extensive they might be. I interpreted his statements to Shallan at the end of WoR as meaning that somebody like him and Veil (and the Ghostbloods in particular) have more power than the Brightlords and Brightladies like Shallan.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@76 The parts of the reading you point out indicate that there was/is a means to purge the Voidspren that doesn’t leave the Parshmen mentally dead, and doesn’t require them to be “cared for.” If the Alethi actually cared at all about that, shouldn’t Gavilar’s next questions have been asking about how the Parshendi managed to accomplish that?
@78 If I recall correctly, Kaladin and Shallan saw hints of glowing walking figures on the Shattered Plains when they were caught out in the highstorm, so I don’t believe Dalinar was hallucinating. I might be wrong.
I love this quote from Kaladin:
“I wonder if men who use cords to bind are fools, since tradition, society, and momentum are going to tie us all down anyway.”
For those upset with the Kaladin chapters, you must remember, this is not his book. He is still a prominent player, and the “Hero of the Ages” if I may steal a title, but not the main point of the book.
It looks like Adolin may learn some of Shallan’s secrets very soon.
Mraize and Ialai: This is big and not at all comforting.
Dalinar was a beast when he was younger and not at all interested in much of anything except Navani and battle. His casual and simple minded actions show how little he was engaged back then.
I think Sadeus and Ialai were a love match.
I think we will find the meeting with Mraize, Ialai, Adolin, and Shallan will play out with each one of them having different goals.
It makes sense that Ialai hangs out with ghostblood since she has a large network spies and assassins should have made that connection. And what is up with the strata reference in every urithiru chapter! Im betting it is some kind of secret to unlocking Urithiru. Sadeas talking about sending assassins in highstorm to kill the king being unalethi like and shows desperation if only he could see himself years later doing the same.
Why do the Ghostbloods have a vendetta against Jasnah? Did she reject their overtures at some point in the past? The noblewomen seem to traffic in assassinations. I wonder if Navani has ever ordered one? Who was the spymaster in Gavilar’s household? The Jasnah chapters from WoR seemed to me like she was not operating under her father’s orders but that just exercising her judgment and skill with caution and a bit of hesitation lest she attract attention to her actions. It occurs to me that we have seen hints that the spymaster plays a huge unspoken role in their society but we have only seen glimpses of how it works. Woman and ardents are the only ones who can read so they would naturally be the best fit. I wonder if Dalinar was handicapped by his foreign bride. She wouldn’t even know how out of her league she was when she jumped into that marriage and he was so single-minded he probably never thought of the need his own house would have. I actually suspect that is the same problem Elokhar’s wife is having…I think she is foreign and doesn’t realize how to thrive and fell to trusting the Ardents. Whether it is Mr T or the Ghostbloods or just some greedy cabal of ardents, they must have had an easy time of it.
Thanks for listening.
@75 renlov
What Sanderson is describing is institutionalized slavery. While Kaladin and his family didn’t own any slaves, they benefited from Parshmen being slaves. That’s the privilege Kaladin is struggling against. He’s aware that the Parshmen have been mistreated. He knows that even though he too was a slave, his experience doesn’t come close to what they’ve experienced for generations. Sanderson is also commenting on the trope of the “white savior” that, while Kaladin is a dark Alethi, being an Alethi who will “save” the Parshmen is going to be tricky. Sah has every right to be angry. Kaladin cannot save him. He will never be able to. The best he can hope is that Sah and the other Parshmen will learn of the role the Parshmen played in the last Desolation and find a middle ground. The Voidbringers needed to be stopped, but the Parshmen didn’t deserve to be enslaved for a thousand years like that. I love how Sanderson is treating this story line.
I’m going to take the stance that Ialai isn’t in league with the Ghostbloods. They are both schemers. Perhaps they’re in some kind of alliance, but they’re both thinking they’ll stab the other in the back the first opportunity they get. Might be fun to watch. Mraize may think he has an advantage with Shallan, but that could also reveal a blindspot of which she can take advantage. Who knows? This is looking to be quite an encounter. Love it.
@78 The “moral” joke was that she treated the word like the moral of a story. So her tips were for how to deliver a moral well through a story.
What a cliffhanger! And am I the only one who thought Ialai could be a Ghostblood?
A few other things:
The little knife that Dalinar was given by a servant bending – was it really due to it’s low quality, or did Gavilar unintentionally use the Tension surge on it? He was talking about the Sunmaker and his failed unification at the time and wondering how to do it right. Kaladin subconsiously used his Adhesion surge before speaking the First Oath, after all.
Shallan notes that all the spheres should have gone dun by this point – does this mean that Urithiru somehow allows spheres to better retain their charge? Does it have something to do with it’s construction or it’s location “close to Honor”? Does some vestige of him remain – beyond Stormfather?
I have also wondered some more about the copy-cat killer, which I still think is supernatural, and it occurred to me that Ishar and Nale probably were behind the Recreance in some way. And that it would have been very much in their interest to drive the KR out of their citadel/prevent any new ones they might have missed/Nale couldn’t legally touch (such as Kholins) from ever re-inhabiting it. So, maybe they booby-trapped it. And newly repentant Nale will help our rookie heroes get rid of whatever it is without straining our suspension of disbelief with ignorant newbs succeeding where much more knowledgeable KRs of old failed.
If Mraize is truly allied with Ialai, this sheds a completely different light on Jasnah’s conflict with the Ghostbloods. Were Sadeases surreptitiously moving against Kholins for some time? While Gavilar was still alive, even? Will Shallan’s brothers be used to (try to) blackmail her into betraying Kholins?
Ancestors of Parshendi were awfully lucky with their timing – did somebody tip them off about what was coming, I wonder?
I’m still pondering this one out, but might Mraize be presenting himself as someone else to Ialai, e.g. not as a member of the Ghostbloods? Ialai knows so much and has such a network that it seems very unlikely, but if anyone could maintain that secrecy, it’s the Ghostbloods.
Adjbaker @49. I do not agree that the Parshmen should thank the Alethi for keeping them “alive” as slaves. The way you make it sound is that the Parshmen are nonsentient or have no sapience. They had no emotions while in their Parshmen form. As if their minds were wading through mud. Based on statements that Sah and Khen made in prior statements, at some level they knew what was happening. Sah knew he watched lighteyes play that card game. In fact, he knew enough to take the card set when he left. Likewise, he knew that the mother of his child was sold off to some other Lighteyes.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@89-“Ancestors of Parshendi were awfully lucky with their timing – did somebody tip them off about what was coming, I wonder?”
What if the ancestors of the Parshendi were the ones to cause the Parshmen to get stuck in slave form? Perhaps the Parshendi are the only ones that chose to become Dull and the Parshmen are the ones that had to be forced unwillingly. Perhaps the Parshendi asked the Alethi to take care of their unwilling brothers because in Dull Form they could not do it.
@11, Now we just need to replace Wash’s dinosaurs with greatshells.
@28 No. Just no.
Well done to Brandon on raising the issue of slavery and how people deal with the wrongs of the past (and the present consequences of past wrongs.)
“Eshonai had assumed the humans were taking care of the poor souls without songs.” Even the Parshendi saw them as incapable of caring for themselves even though they were horrified by slavery of any kind. It would take a superhuman kind of generosity (and a strange reverse sort of slavery) to care for the poor souls without songs for generations don’t you think? The SA is raising all sorts of powerful questions about how we treat “others” but the connection to reality is strained if we try to push it too far.
I love these chapters. I have two cents about three different things:
As someone mentioned, two or three of the tall light things were glimpsed in the highstorm by Kaladin and Shallan in the chasm. I had wondered if they had to do with Stormform Parshendi since that had already started, but the descriptions seemed off. They matched what Dalinar sees. They sound like lightning versions of the rock creatures in Dalinar’s visions and the cover of OB, which happen to be called Thunderclasts. Have the bad spren been lurking in the storms, even though they are of Honor, taking an ephemeral light version of their stone forms? If so, how was the connection known and thus named for them? Syl saw red spren before Eshonai transformed, and Stormfather implied that Odium was sending Szeth during a highstorm.
Second, I think the Listeners/Parshendi went to dullform, who while slow by the standards of their other forms, can still think and reason much above Parshmen. Rlain could spy, observe, take advantage of his knowledge of Alethi attitudes toward Parshmen to move about the camps, reason with Kaladin about being Bridge 4’s slave, stand guard and fulfill his duties once he was armed, and decide when and how to leave the camp to return and report. The dullforms in the city on the plains (forgot the name) could attune rhythms, or in my mind, partake of the central unifying factor of Listener culture. The foggy mind, lack of reasoning, and lack of rhythms described by the freed Parshmen seems to come from the winning stroke of that last desolation when the Heralds jumped ship. But it must be in degrees, because someone–Dalinar maybe?–has previously discussed how the Alethi know the Parshmen can communicate without words, so they retain some vestige or version of the communal rhythms.
Finally, the last sentence about Mraize was perfect. I was shocked and delighted–delighted in a “what a clever twist” way rather than excited for what this means for our protagonists. My immediate reaction was that he was playing some sort of role in his connection with Ialai, not that she knew who the Ghostbloods were. Others’ suppositions that she has always been a Ghostblood, and presumably aware of intrigues against Amaram and that he had secret connections with Gavilar that Sadeas didn’t know about, are great ideas with very interesting implications as well. However, I still think it makes the most sense for Mraize to be gathering information/power/leverage whatever for his organization’s own goals, and just using access to Ialai to further his own goals, which in a way, is much like what Shallan did with her access and knowledge of the Kholin camp in WoR.
I also think he will be proud, or at least accepting, of hearing what Shallan did in the bar. He wants her to identify as a Ghostblood and play the role of Veil. As long as she doesn’t directly oppose his own goals, especially knowingly, I think he’s happy to see her accepting a position in the Ghostbloods. I also think the unnatural, likely Unmade, cause of the copycat murders is most likely, so I don’t see her investigation as impeding him. If she spreads further fear and awe of the Ghostbloods in her wake, even better.
I have a hard time drawing the same parallels between our real world human slavery and the Parshmen for one main reason. As far as the Alethi were aware, the Parshmen weren’t really sentient. They weren’t people. They were pack animals. Do we condemn them for enslaving horses too? And when the Alethi suddenly came across a bunch of sentient Parshmen (the Parshendi), did they seek to enslave them too? No, they invited them in and proposed a peace treaty. The crime here isn’t the use of the Parshmen, it’s whatever was done to them to make them that way. I suspect whoever did that had damn good reasons for it but we shall see.
That being said, I see no reason for the Parshmen to be happy about the situation. I imagine if a plow horse suddenly became sentient with full memory of his treatment before, he probably wouldn’t feel too kindly toward his owner. But can we really condemn that owner either? I don’t see how.
I think the real issue with the Parshmen and their anger towards the Alethi is that, as Kaladin pointed out and the Parshmen understand, even now the Alethi will still want them to be slaves as they’ve lost their major workforce. Sah had every right to be upset, as he knows that even now that the Parshmen are unequivocally sentient (though I think they were sentient before, just not as much, hell dullform Parshendi were sentient enough to hold a seat on the 5-form council!) the Parshmen fate and freedom is still up to the mercy of the Alethi. The Alethi still have to decide to “let them go.” It’s that knowledge that Sah find so objectionable, even coming from Kaladin, a clear ally.
So no, there is never a need to be thankful for your oppressor’s mercy because the oppressors don’t have the inherent right to enslave or oppress others anyway.
91. AndrewHB – ” I do not agree that the Parshmen should thank the Alethi for keeping them “alive” as slaves.”
I agree with you. But I am hoping that the Parshmen can perhaps learn not to Hate. The Alethi were in a very difficult situation. What should the Alethi have done instead? Ignore them and let them all die because they can not take care of themselves?
@98 Why do we assume the Parshmen were incapable of taking care of themselves? Dull-form Parshendi aren’t taken care of by the other forms…
Oppressors often take that stance- “we’re doing them a favor by enslaving them.” That was certainly the reasoning behind slavery in America and other countries.
Great discussion so far, with a lot of good points brought up.
@78 Andrew – I like your various theories about Ialai and Mraize. I personally think that she is part of the Ghostbloods, which would explain her efficacy and her strong spy network. If I recall correctly, Sadeas only knows that she has a spy network, not how it is maintained or perhaps whom its being operated by. If however Ialai had her own spy network outside of the Ghostbloods and Mraize came to propose a union, that could be a powerful network. Would Ialai consider marriage with Mraize? Will he be the token new Highprince? I know others have asked how succession works, and I would like to know as well. This will be very interesting.
As a side note, I loved the straightforward simplicity of Dalinar as a young man. And I agree with others, he is not like the Adolin we know of today.
I typically neglect to make posts here, at least in a timely manner after a new chapter group has come out because I want to read what everyone else has said first. However, in this instance I feel I should post this now, knowing that it takes me at least five days generally to actually catch up on the comments (if I ever do). So here goes.
On the slavery debate, I ask that you of it this way:
A foreign country comes in and defeats your country, over the course of years. They enslave you and your descendants as long as history can remember, using some sort of technology to keep you from being able to control yourself. One day, that tech breaks. The ‘slave race’ can now think for themselves. Should they be grateful to their slave-masters for not having killed them or their parents? Or would they be justified in hating these people who have kept them from even thinking, them and their parents and their parents’ parents, for generations.
Put yourself in this place. How would you feel? I can guarantee that you wouldn’t respond “grateful”.
Aside from that, I really like how much of a driving theme Honor is within this series. I can see places where that Honor shines through, or is the cause of a struggle or conflict. It is also very apparent to me that this writing is applicable to our world. (Example – is the honorable thing to do going to be waging war with a country for years because a few citizens from it committed a terrorist attack? Probably not. Is it the Alethi way? Yes.)
I also find a lot more of the things also applicable today – discrimination (against all sorts of groups, for all sorts of reasons that we, on the outside, may ignore because they are ‘bonkers’ (ridiculous reasons), or because we ‘aren’t as bad’ or whatever instead of thinking “how are we similar, and what should we change”).
Loved it. Anyone catch this slight reference to ol’ Tal:
“Outside the feast hall, a storm raged like a madman who’d been locked away, impotent and ignored.“
You know, I was pretty sure this whole time that the author of Oathbringer is Jasnah, even if it seems too obvious, but I’m finally starting to wonder at that. This author seems to be overly rambly and I feel like while Jasnah likes her metaphors, she tended to get to the point. I don’t know, maybe it just seems rambly because we’ve only been getting 2-3 sentences a week, and it would read easier in one chunk.
Also, I say this every time we get a Dalinar flashback, but I LOVE young Dalinar! I mean yes, he was a terrible person, but he’s just so interesting. I love seeing this person who is so completely incongruous with his older self, wondering how he got to where he is now, and occasionally seeing a glimpse or two of our Dalinar. Also just because he’s hilarious. I read that chapter twice, it was just so great.
I also just thought, if Navani had in fact married Dalinar instead of Gavilar, would that marriage have worked out, or also fallen apart in the way her actual marriage did? I think she was very attracted to Dalinar because he was cocky and confident and powerful, but she also only really interacted with him when he was the highprince (rather than soldier). He was arrogant and annoying, sure, but also kind of charming and funny. If she’d married him, and gotten to know the darker side of him, I wonder if they would’ve lasted. And if they had, if they would have turned out the same -since it seems past Navani was also a little less considerate and more about ambitions than current Navani, maybe they would’ve been another variation of Ialai and Sadeas.
As for Shallan and Adolin, god they’re just so good together! I’m sure others will disagree, but I just love how comfortable they’re getting with each other, and you can see them subtly growing as a couple. Shallan is starting to be more confident helping Adolin out politically, and he obviously gains strength from her support. He’s keeping up with her better as well, their conversations are a lot less Shallan making jokes and Adolin looking on with puppy eyes, and he jokes right back with her, even if he is more straightforward. And they’re getting better at reading each other, and noticing if they’re acting off. Obviously it’s nowhere near perfect -they’re keeping a lot from each other, and I’m wondering if Adolin had actually maybe been hoping Shallan would ask him what he was hiding (she obviously doesn’t realize it’s that serious or she wouldn’t have been so flippant), but I kind of like that. They don’t just immediately understand each other perfectly, but are learning about each other slowly, and getting better at reading each other. I think whenever they do figure out each others’ secrets, they’ll be good for each other as well. Their personalities are good foils for each other.
Oh, and I also loved how Kaladin keeps getting called out by the parshmen. I don’t think he was wrong to be upset at how darkeyes are treated, but it’s definitely good for him to see that he did basically the same thing with the parshmen. They were slaves because they’d always been slaves, and he never questioned the ethicality of that, in a similar way to how many lighteyes don’t question that they’re above darkeyes. It doesn’t make anyone 100% right or wrong, but I think it’s eye opening, and expands his worldview.
@@@@@ 103 stegasauruss. I don’t think it’s true to assume that Navani never knew Dalinar until he became the Highprince. She mentions in WoK that they were friends before she even met Gavilar. They probably knew each other before the conquest started, or after Gavilar and Dalinar conquered Kholinar, but before they started on the rest of the Kingdom.
I think even this younger, more brutish Dalinar could make Navani interested in him, since he probably paid attention when she talked, unlike when Sadeas and Gavilar talk politics. :) If she only met him when he was in a non-violent situation, she probably quite liked him, We’ve seen Dalinar and Navani go on walks in WoK, and there they both manage to keep the conversation relatively interesting for the other person. She’s probably used to all the men talking about fighting. Only then after the conquest started (or continued), and she started to see just how much he lived for the Thrill and fighting, she became scared of how intense and consumed he was by it.
99. kals_gal – “Why do we assume the Parshmen were incapable of taking care of themselves? Dull-form Parshendi aren’t taken care of by the other forms…”
You are right, it is an assumption, but every point of view gives the impression that before the awaking the Parshmen could not make decisions on there own or learn anything very complicated. It was worse than Dull Form. It was no form, pretty much seems to be an almost total loss of mind and soul but a body that still worked.
Like you say, maybe that is a total excuse and the Parshmen could have survived on there own. It will be interesting if that is confirmed.
@99 kals_gal
Dullform is not the same thing as slaveform. The Parshendi send a dullform spy to infiltrate the Alethi warcamps, and he’s entirely capable of taking initiative and thinking independently. In slaveform, the parshmen just do as they’re told; they’re shut off the world by a kind of forced detachment, unable to conceive of taking action without orders.
However, designing a form that could make an entire race incapable of surviving without owners isn’t any better than enslaving a people that could survive on their own. It’s worth noting that the Alethi don’t try to “fix” the parshmen; from their perspective, perfectly obedient slaves that can’t survive on their own are a solution, not a problem.
I am willing to draw a distinction between the modern Alethi, who generally have no idea that the parshmen were ever capable of freedom, and the ancestors who deliberately enslaved them. Of course, since the modern Alethi have no problem with human slaver, they’re eager to hunt down the newly freed parshmen and reenslave them. So even though it’s unfair to blame them for actions they didn’t take, we can rest assured that they would have approved of what their ancestors did if only they had known.
Elle @105 that’s what I meant- sorry it wasn’t very clear phrasing. I meant “highprince” as his non-warrior persona, the one you see in flashbacks like this, and “soldier” as when we see him in battle. I didn’t mean they only met after Gavilar became king. I just figured, if they had gotten married back then, she probably would’ve seen a lot more of his rough edges than she did as his friend, or as she did as Gavilar’s wife, and I wonder how she would’ve reacted.
@@@@@ 108 stegasauruss. Ah, right. His more ‘noble/lighteyed’ side. To be honest, I don’t know. As for his rough edges, he seems to spend most of his time outside of battles bored and drunk, which couldn’t have been fun to deal with as a wife. Either way, the Alethi don’t seem to have divorce, so she would have to make the best of it. Their society seems to have gotten more segregated with time (or rank, since in this flashback Dalinar is annoyed by the separation), with men and women moving in very different circles, so you don’t have to spend that much time with your spouse, if you don’t want to.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I find it very interesting how this Alethi gender division has managed to create husband-wife teams that have to be very loyal, regardless of how much they actually like each other (as far as we’ve seen). While the women do a lot of the politics (in their own circles), it seems to be only the men who are capable of moving the couple up and down the ranks (Hashal’s husband in WoK got ‘promoted’ to lead the bridge crews). And as we’ve seen with Navani, as soon as your husband dies, bye, that’s it. You’re retired from society now. That makes me wonder what Ialai is going to do. Maybe it’s because there’s no clear heir there yet.
Even though both Shallan and Adolin have killed in questionable circumstances I can’t help but see them facing Mraize and Ialai as the innocent vs. the evil.
It could be that in her hurt and rage Ialai might think punishing Adolin (even if she doesn’t know he was the killer) might be a great way to punish Dalinar. Or even worse, maybe the Ghostbloods know what really happened and now she has him where he can’t escape her.
I can’t think of any immediate reason that Mraize would have to hurt Shallan. He already knows who she is and he may have her brothers as a control on her already. That would stop her from protecting Adolin if Ialai takes him. They are plums ready for plucking.
A couple more notes to follow what I posted at 96.
1. As a couple others have said, dullform Parshendi are similar but NOT the same as Parshmen. We have NEVER seen an actual Parshman speak pre awakening. The post awakening Parshmen even states that while he was more or less aware of what was going on around him, he had no control or reason over it.
2. Everyone is just assuming that the Alethi will hunt down the Parshmen and try to re-enslave them but I’d just like to point out that that is only an assumption. It may be likely but no one has done so yet. It is entirely possible that someone could try, face organized resistance and come to realize these aren’t the same old Parshmen and change their mind.
@@@@@ 111 wingracer. I think the assumption that the Alethi will hunt down the parshmen because it’s known that they find it very insulting and dishonorable for slaves to escape, and they’ll do anything to recapture them. And the Alethi met the organized, clearly intelligent Parshendi and they still wanted to conquer them and thought they were barbarians. The only reason they made a treaty is because of Gavilar’s questionable goals.
Ooh, I just had a thought. Perhaps Ialai has some evidence to accuse Adolin with. In accordance with Alethi custom, he is challenged to a duel to decide the matter. But Adolin is the best duelist around, who do they have to take him? Perhaps Mraize has brought a proto-radiant of his own to lend to Ialai’s cause. Or maybe even a certain law and order type herald. Good thing for Adolin that his father has a windrunner honor blade hidden away.
@111. we saw a pashman speak in words of radiance. his name was ‘one’ and introduced shallan to ‘two’
@113: You mean the Honorblade Dalinar has “hidden” which we were told is “hidden”? I wouldn’t be surprised if the duelist Adolin faces is the one yielding the Honorblade… not him.
@@@@@ 113 wingracer. Doesn’t Alethi custom also hold that if someone’s subordinates do something, the person higher up is responsible? In that case Ialai just has to suspect that someone from Dalinar’s camp did it (which is a very logical assumption). She might pick Adolin as a target because she knows he’s easier to get to or it’ll hurt Dalinar more (Renarin isn’t technically in the chain of command, as far as I can tell, so he’d be left out of it). There must be punishments besides duels, especially if someone is suspected to be in some way responsible for a crime.
@111- that’s fair, I realize Dullform Parshendi is not quite the same as the Parshmen. But yes the Parshmen do speak. And mate, and have families, even referring to their mates as wives (and husbands presumably).
And while I guess we are still technically assuming the Alethi will try to reclaim their property, Kaladin actually said that that was what the Alethi would do. So it’s probably a pretty fair assumption.
Tommy@@@@@84 writes, “Why do the Ghostbloods have a vendetta against Jasnah?”
Because she killed several of them. Mraize explains this at the end of WoR.
@100 Marriage between Mraize and Ialai? Stormfather forbid!!
If I recall correctly, Mraize is a darkeye, and Ialai should be a lighteye.
Anyway, does anyone know of any example of a lighteyed noble marrying a darkeye man, and the man gets elevated to a lighteye ‘rank’?
Oh my word this could go all kinds of bad.
I like how we have actually seen very little of ialai but what we have heard makes her a definite threat. Nice work there on Brandon’s part.
I really like how Adolin is rattling this stuff off about leadership to Shallan. He knows his stuff and he cares, and it’s cool that for all her radiant powers, he has stuff he can teach her.
I do find it a nice touch that Brandon manages to bring little glimpses of the sometimes taboo yet important real life human concerns that all too many fantasy series just never mention like, how defecation when wearing armor in battle would be a logistics issue, or the menstrual cycle even getting a mention at all, and he tosses it into his word via natural conversations characters might have. (I mean I love Wheel of Time to death, but do the aes sedai have a trick of concentration that makes the menstrual cycle just go away or something?) Thorough worldbuilding, plus character relationship development in one go, check! The only one he hasn’t touched on yet, and wouldn’t have reason to with our current characters really or the way he probably treats this stuff, is alethi birth control, which, considering our alethi family examples aren’t exceptionally large, has got to exist in some form.
Bless@@@@@119: Remember, Kaladin was going to marry Laral. He would not have increased to lighteyed status, and any darkeyed children born to them would have been (high-ranking) commoners.
I see I’m the only one super-frustrated because Kaladin is not eloquent nor a trained thinker.
The thing is, he could make better arguments with Sah, but he gets frustrated and inarticulate sometimes.
For one: “Yes, you were abused horribly. But not by me or my friends. Why be angry at me? Because my ancestors were somewhat luckier and only got servitude instead of slavery? Because instead of watching my child’s mother sold, I watched my brother slaughtered?”
“I’m not trying to rule you. I am teaching you. Would you rather stay ignorant? I thought that was why you were so angry! Because you spent your life unable to learn and decide.”
Or, if he decided to be super-honest: “Yes, your people were spiritually mutilated. Not by me, it happened over 4000 years ago! If I knew how to fix it, I would have. Also, the other option was apparently to watch the entire world destroyed.”
@116: I do think Ialai is trying to pin the murders on Adolin whether she has proof about Torol or not. Nobody is going to believe Renarin did it: everyone will believe it was Adolin.
@78
The Kaladin saw the Glowingspider thing when he was out in the highstorm with Shallan IIRC.
I wouldn’t call Sadeas evolving so much as becoming one with the Thrill.
Mraize is Thaylen based on his refering to the South Scadrial Hunter as his Babisk.
@79 Gavilar wasn’t listening to Eshonai. He had a holy quest and assumed she’d be easy to recruit for it.
@84 At some point she killed some of them.
@104 I don’t remember that of Kaladin. he wasn’t willing to let Bridge 4 mistreat Rlain and when he hit the spear/slave issue he did raise the issue with Dalinar and apologised for not having made the decision on the spot.
Intrestingly I don’t remember Lift interacting with an parshmen and they aren’t common in scenes with Adolin.
On the matter of who created the parshmen I suspect the following Epigraph in WoR tells us
“So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.”
It was one of the Bondsmiths. But we don’t know when. Last Desolation or later?
I’m also still wondering about the increased stormlight charges Texim mentions. Attempting to discourage the use ofthe Oathgates or trying to gather stormlight for some reason?
Then Urithiru is abandoned and then later the Recreance.
117. kals_gal – You make some very good points about how the Parshmen had families, talked, and had real names. When Shallan talked to the Parshmen and they said names of One and Two, I initially thought they were playing dumb. But then when they were talking to Kaladin and talking about not having minds and being in the dark, I changed my mind and thought they really were dumb and couldn’t take care of themselves. But know I am not sure, maybe they were playing into the Alethi perceptions and hiding there true comprehension even though it was limited.
Ah the plot thickens – Ialai and Mraize together.
Love the Shalland/Adolin scenes
@121 Carl
In life, listening is often better than talking, and actions often speak louder than words.
The key to convincing people is knowing your audience. Right now, the parshmen are not interested in hearing Kaladin talk, no matter how justified or convincing his arguments are. He needs to show them that he’s on their side, again and again, until they trust him. When they trust him, they’ll be ready to listen, and he can speak.
Kaladins oaths are basically the geneva conventions. lol
On why the parhshmen aren’t Voidbringers: Remember that per WoR, “slaveform” (which is what the parshmen are) are Parshendi without spren. Also, in WoR it’s mentioned that the Parshendi choose their forms, but sometimes can bond the wrong kind of spren by mistake and end up in a different form than they wanted. So when they were out in the storm, it’s possible they just bonded with the first available spren that came along; if the form they’re in (workform? I don’t remember if there are enough clues from Kaladin’s PoV for us to know) is the result of the most common spren for choosing forms, that could explain why they all ended up in this form. Alternatively, it could be that they’re in the “default” form and that you have to consciously choose something else. (Although the last possibility is contraindicated by the fact that for a while, dullform and mateform were the only two forms they knew, and these Parshendi are clearly neither of those.)
Currently, I am re-reading the first two books and eagerly awaiting Oathbringer! Brandon Sanderson gets my vote for top-of-the-stack active writers, and I want more of everything he writes!
Halfway through my reread of the first two books.
@60 As much as I would like “Oathbringer” to have been written by a current character, I don’t think it was. After considering what has been given to us so far, I think it was written by Sadees the Sunmaker.
Dalinar (this is the book with his flashbacks after all) is trying to unite humanity on Roshar against voidbringers. The Sunmaker was also trying to “unite” although for a different reason. In addition, Dalinar’s shardblade was named Oathbringer by Sunmaker. It would make sense that the book was also written by him. I would not be surprised, given the Alethi seperation of roles by gender, if the writing of a book by a male was considered heretical.
Yeah it’s looking more and more that the chapter headings were not written by Jasnah. She’s a “no excuses” type of person and the author seems to want to justify their actions (whatever they were) a bit too much. Jasnah might have prefaced a book with some of the things written but not all of them. In the Jasnah vs the field I’m picking the field. I am open to being wrong.
Somebody in some previous comment marked that Sadees (the Sunmaker) sounded very similar to Sadeas and wondered if it was a coincidence. Now seeing the name again in Gwydion’s comment, it struck me that if all princedoms belonged to Sunmaker’s heirs, we have our answer.
Regarding young Dalinar, I did not like him that much in the previous flashback, but I do like him here. He’s not uncivilized, he just doesn’t bother with all the formalities and nuances of court life. Like AndrewHB said @78, he’s just being a warrior, not shifting into being a courtier. More straightforward, and honest. His explanation of the reasons for their war were pure genius that really made me chuckle (though the biggest laugh-burst still goes to Pattern for not allowing anybody to mate :D )
EDit: Forgot to mention it earlier, but hammerlock @28, having toh was brilliant, I laughed out loud :)
I don’t know if this point has been raised before, but I think I’ve got an idea for how the parshmen’s slavery happened.
When the listeners abandoned their gods, they had two forms, Dullform and Mateform. Eshonai reminisces on this. Now, Dullform *looks* like a parshman, but isn’t one. They can think, they can act, they are sentient.
So, suppose a number of Dullforms are found and kept prisoners by the humans. The humans have very little knowledge of Listener culture. These Dullform prisoners are kept notably away from Highstorms, which is where they get their spren, but the humans don’t mean anything by it. Still, the result is that the offspring of those Dullforms (yes, there is something weird here, I still don’t know how they reproduced without Mateform of if there were some in it or what) never went out in the storms and never bonded spren. There you have parshmen, without song.
Loving the Aiel jokes ;)
Regarding the creature (spren?) in the highstorm — is it possible that the material and cognitive realms somehow converge in highstorms? It might explain the creature (which may be how some kind of spren naturally looks on the other side), and some things people saw during the storm.
@@@@@ 122 Gepeto. Yes, that’s true. What I meant is that even if Ialai doesn’t know who killed Sadeas, she can probably guess that the person responsible was most likely from Dalinar’s faction. Sadeas escaped an ‘Alethi assassination’ (aka duel) by them already. It could’ve been an angry slave from the bridge crews, or someone loyal to Dalinar who’s angry about the tower, or it could’ve even been the highprince’s son. :) They know it was probably someone with soldier training.
However, as long as she knows (or believes she knows) the army the killer is from (assuming she doesn’t know it was actually Adolin), she might be able to.. escalate the responsibility of the failure up the chain of command. The person being punished would not the be person actually responsible for the crime (like Lamaril and the side carry). It was his failure as a commander that led to this tragedy being carried out (well, at least it was a tragedy to Ialai). In that case, she could pin it on someone she knows Dalinar cares about (if she sees Dalinar als ultimately responsible due to the feud).
What I meant by mentioning Renarin is that he might not technically be in the chain of command (or is he? what are his responsibilities in the camp exactly?), so even if Ialai believes accusing him would hurt Dalinar more (his youngest son, who he kept from the battlefield), she might not be able to do it.
The parshmen are frustrated about needing help from a human. That Kaladin is just trying to help doesn’t change how they feel about being dependent on a human again. It may not be fair towards him, but it is perfectly understandable.
Just because the book doesn’t sound the way Jasnah talks doesn’t mean she can’t be the author. Literature often has expected styles that are different from everyday language. Jasnah may be a heretic, but as a scholar she may still respect literary conventions.
Does anyone else thing Sebarial and Palona are gonna end up being word hoppers? They are just way too “relaxed” all the time, even during high intensity/high fear/high panic situations.
To all those predicting that it is the Unmade behind the double murders: are we even sure that the Unmade can enter Urithiru? Remember that something is very special about the stone Urithiru is made out of, so special that even the Shin think it is alright to walk it. The original title of “Oathbringer” was supposed to be “Stones Unhallowed” and, if I’m not wrong, it’s still going to be the title of the 4th book. I’d say that’s quite the hint.
Some points to add to the earlier discussion comparing Adolin to young Dalinar, I don’t think they’re as different as some people have portrayed them. They both clearly use feigned stupidity as a way of not engaging or bothering with subjects they’re not interested in – see the start of Adolin’s conversation with Shallan on chasmfiends. Also they’re both very single minded – all Adolin wants to do is dual and win honour, and all Dalinar wanted was battle, everything else is just an annoying distraction – see Adolin’s first POV chapters in WoK. The main differences seem to stem from the directions they are given by those they look up to rather than internal character differences.
On Ialai and the Ghostbloods – it’s difficult to express a view as we know so little about both of them and their aims. From context though, I’d be very surprised if the Ghostbloods aim on Roshar isn’t Cosmere-wide (why would you bother world hopping just to engage in local political/power struggles?). Whereas from what we know of Ialai, her focus was on political power struggles in Alethkar in partnership with Sadeas. Based on this, an open partnership seems unlikely and I believe Mraize is working with her as her aims are temporarily in line with the aims of the Ghostbloods – probably in some sort of assumed persona (maybe as a key part of her spy network). Another factor is that Ialia doesn’t seem the type to subjugate herself to someone else’s authority, and I doubt she really has anything to offer that they don’t already have so why would they recruit her directly to a position of authority? Of course, I could be completely off the mark as so little has been revealed and am excited to find out.
I’m also intrigued by the glowing figure in the storm and am reasonably sure it’s foreshadowing of some kind.
@28:. Funny, I had the same thought about Toh when I saw the name. Lol.
Ben
@136: I agree with your post, but you raise an interesting question: Which son would Dalinar react the most shall he be accused of murder? Through attacking which son are you harming Dalinar the most? Is it Adolin, the perfect son, the bearer of all expectations who never failed, who has always been strong no matter what? Or is it Renarin, the sickly weak child, the second son always in the shadow of the eldest, Dalinar always felt he needed to protect from harm?
This being said, I agree that, even if she wanted to, Ialai can’t put the blame on Renarin. It wouldn’t even catch: nobody hates Renarin, but everyone hates Adolin.
@140: I disagree. Young Dalinar is not even able to follow a simple conversation and understands nothing of his brother political manipulations. Adolin might pretend he does not care, he might claim all he cares about is dueling and courting, but he does listen and when pushes comes to shove, he shows he not only listened, but understood everything. Young Dalinar doesn’t just play dumb: he is dumb. In shorts, Adolin pretends he is a simple-minded idiot, but he is not. Young Dalinar doesn’t pretend: he does not care if he is one. Both are very different individuals and if Adolin sometimes reads like Dalinar, I think chapter 21 just told us why: he tries to be like Dalinar. He wants to be Dalinar so he acts like him.
@@@@@ 142 Gepeto. It is a very interesting question, and one I believe has been discussed a lot by many people. Adolin seems to be Dalinar’s right hand man, and is on the frontlines of every battle. On the other hand, Renarin is present during, as far as I can tell, every single strategy meeting Dalinar holds, whether it’s military or camp politics. Even ones where Adolin is not present. Combining this with the WoB that says Adolin used to feel jealous of Renarin, makes it hard to argue for one over the other.
But I do have a point of contention with something you said. ‘Nobody hates Renarin, but everyone hates Adolin’. I’m not sure that is actually true. I mean, I believe it’s true for Ialai (and her soldiers, at the moment). But in the rest of Alethkar. We’ve been told (and shown by Shallan) that many people think Renarin is creepy. He’s not a fighter, he’s not masculine in the way that the Alethi hold up as the only way to be masculine. He’s intelligent, and probably good at thinking through the implications of things (he made an interesting point about the alliance with Sadeas in WoK, as well as the stone hooves of the Ryshadium), but he’s terrible at expressing them in ways that someone who isn’t familiar with him can understand. People are often suspicious of people who are different, and they don’t like, or even hate them.
On the other hand, as you’ve said, Adolin is basically the perfect son. He is, as far as other people can tell, a model of Alethi masculinity, Gavilar or Dalinar in their younger days reborn. Even his duelling, and the winning of shards was done in the ‘proper’ Alethi way. He won the contest. People are angry at him now, but even Sadeas says, after a bit of civil war, maybe some good propaganda, and Adolin’s actions could be held up as a model of Alethi behaviour. People now revere Gavilar and the Blackthorn (Dalinar used to get swamped by admirers at every feast), but as the flashbacks show, they weren’t that happy with them back in the day. Uncivilized brutes undeserving of their position, and all that.
Of course none of this means Ialai won’t focus on Adolin as the person to pin the blame on. I just don’t believe it’s because everyone likes/is neutral about Renarin, and hates Adolin.
@142 Gepato
“Young Dalinar is not even able to follow a simple conversation and understands nothing of his brother political manipulations.”
You’re equating that fact that he didn’t follow the conversation with an inability to do so, which just doesn’t follow. There’s nothing there to indicate that had he bothered to listen and pay attention that we wouldn’t have been capable of understanding – the chapter just shows him bored and not bothering. How do you square your perception of Dalinar being stupid then with the clearly intelligent Dalinar in the present? The answer seems obvious to me – he was never stupid he just didn’t bother engaging in the side of things he wasn’t interested in; instead focusing on the bit he loved. But when forced to worry about politics due to later circumstances, it takes some practice for him to get good at it, but he always had the potential and intellect otherwise he’d never have gotten there.
That’s before getting into the witty comments he makes in this flashback which show intellect, as well as working out the balcony he was on was a trap before his brother and Sadeas get caught in it too – pretty quick thinking.
In short your assertions that he is dumb aren’t supported. Also, Adolin trying to emulate Dalinar would be much more likely to emulate the present day Dalinar whom he admires so much rather than the drunken, berserker warrior from before he was born. There is a much simpler explanation between the similarities between Adolin and Dalinar – the fact that he is his son.
A prediction:
Shallan and Adolin feel too good together for it to last and soon (with help from Mraize?) they’ll be separated
Adolin will be banished from Alethkar, and his plate returned to Irri to forge alliance… He’ll keep only the sword
Shallan won’t follow him in his exile
@143 elle
Building on what you’ve said – in Adolin’s first POV, near the start he’s thinking about how Renarin makes people uncomfortable and that they think he’s dissecting their thoughts (before going into how wrong they are. Then in this book Shallan reacts in exactly that way to him. So I would agree that Adolin is better liked.
However it then shows Dalinar reacting very strongly to Wit making (mostly) good natured jibes towards Renarin and at other points acting more protectively of Renarin than he does with Adolin (presumably as he believes him more capable of dealing with things himself). So I agree with Gepato that Dalinar would be more distressed about Renarin being framed for this than we would if Adolin was “framed” for it.
@@@@@ 146 Aon Reo. Yes, I do believe you and Gepeto are both right on that point. While Adolin is his heir (often considered to be the more important child), and he cares for both his children, Dalinar has never quite gotten out of the habit of protecting Renarin and seeing him as a boy, while Adolin is a fully capable adult in his mind.
But are the rest of the Alethi aware of how Dalinar sees his two sons? Wit understands, but the others are so focused on warrior = good that they might think of Renarin as that one son he can’t get rid of, but he doesn’t really like. Sadeas certainly didn’t have any problems with calling Renarin useless to Dalinar’s face, and he seemed surprised when Dalinar got angry.
Then again Ialai might be observant enough to have noticed this and act on it.. but I don’t really want Renarin to be framed, adding an even bigger burden onto Adolin’s shoulders, and probably making him feel like he has no other option but to confess.
@@@@@matthew2402018
This is probably that most common Adolin theory amongst lots of the fandom (one is subscribe to), see 17th shard forums for more. It has been confirmed by WoB (no citation to hand) that the ‘dead’ blade he carries is from the Edgedancer order and that it is possible, if extremely difficult, to ressurect a ‘dead’ blade.
This is why Renarin talking about having Shallan draw a picture of Sureblood to held Adolin with ‘remembering’ in an earlier chapter has been so keenly leapt upon and why others fans expect Adolin to be ‘broken’ in some way by exile or some other means in retribution for his killing (totally warranted IMHO) of Sadeas, when the truth inevitably comes to light.
@@@@@ 73 – Ambly
I am unsure but if I remember correctly, it is the PARSHENDI or the Pashmen themselves who created the slave form so that they can escape from Odium. It was mentioned in either WoK or WoR. I can be totally wrong, but that is what I remember. I believe the Alethi found the Parshmen and started caring for them. But they have to be kept busy. And after thousands of years, they just became slaves and nobody remembered why they were slaves in the first place.
And they are NOT called slave form. The Parshmen are in DULL FORM.
Something that doesn’t seem to have been discussed yet – the four Highprinces who resisted Gavilar the longest. Do we know who they are from anywhere? If not, anyone care to speculate?
Most of the Highprinces appear to be of similar age to Dalinar, so presumably some of them would have been Highprince back then and the rest would presumably have been at least reasonably influential in their Princedom.
@149 I thought the Parshendi created dullform to escape their gods, whereas the parshmen had slaveform inflicted upon them. There are two distinct spren-less forms similar enough that dullform can pass for slave form but dull form still has personal agency in a way slave form does not.
@149 sheiglagh
I don’t think that can be right – the Listeners (pre-slaveform) were part of Odium’s forces and fought against the humans in multiple conflicts. So that makes Shallan’s thoughts, after Jasnah shares her research, seem the most likely – that once defeated they were enslaved and harnessed.
The Parshedi willingly adopted dull-form to escape the control of their gods, but that doesn’t mean they created it. My suspicion is that dull-form is simply a Listener who isn’t bonded to a Spren, and that slave-form (or the Parshmen) are listeners in dull-form who have also had their Identity (by which I mean the investiture related Identity) severed. This is supported by Syl’s comments in an earlier chapter here.
I love how this is our first direct line of sight of one of the mysterious storm walking things, and the POV character doesn’t spend a single second giving us any speculation or information, just flips it off and goes back inside.
@118 Carl Mraize said it was because she killed several of them.
1. This does not say how it got started. That is my question. I was speculating that they approached her for membership and she declined. This secret society doesn’t seem inclined towards letting bygones be bygones
2. Mraize is not a reliable source.
@149 You’re mixing up two different things. The Listeners/Parshendi are a small group who isolated themselves and were in dull form, but still with rhythms, self-determination, etc. The majority of “Parshmen” as known to Roshar, the slaves, are in what the Listeners call “slave form,” with no rhythms or self-determination. The Parshendi commented to Gavilar and co. something to the effect of “Where are their songs?” They are separate groups of related people. The Alethi cannot tell the difference, but the Listeners can instantly distinguish by the lack of rhythm communication.
sheiglagh @139 and others: No, slaveform is the unique form without a spren. Dullform have spren. From WoR:
@143: I should have clarified my thoughts. I badly expressed my thoughts. What I meant in saying “nobody hates Renarin, but everybody hates Adolin” is, outside the Kholin princedom, people generally have it against Adolin, not Renarin. It is either Adolin is dismissed, feared, viewed as a threat needing to be removed or someone needing being put back at his place. So while people may find Renarin “creepy” and not want to hang around with him at social conventions, they have never teamed up to get him publicly beaten and crippled.
Thus, I definitely think, outside the Kholin princedom, people would more readily want to attack Adolin, to remove him out of either jealousy or hate or a combination of both. Renarin isn’t enticing the same reactions: people either do not care about him or avoid him, except for Wit.
@144: Oh, I don’t read modern day Dalinar as particularly intelligent. I read him as someone with a lot of experience, but not someone overly smart. Young Dalinar reads as quite dumb, he was also dumb during the last flashbacks, not knowing why he was attacking, not bothering with the plans, rushing ahead: none of these are behaviors Adolin would have.
I personally read little to no similarities in between young Dalinar, as depicted within the 3 flashbacks we have read, and Adolin. They have close to nothing in common as far as I can read, but I see others millage seems to vary. I was curious so it is why I asked. I however have to disagree with you.
As to who Dalinar would react the most for?
I will revise my thoughts. I think Dalinar will react very harshly to either one if he feels he failed his son. If he feels the son brought it upon himself or is a casualty of war, he wouldn’t hurt as much as if he thinks he is responsible for it. The question now is, which son Dalinar feels he is the most responsible for? Would he feel more responsible for his heir being framed or for his sick boy? I think the answer is Renarin, shall Adolin be killed or assassinated, Dalinar would think it a casualty , his older self would avenge him, but his new self? Probably not because politic would prime on vengeance or retribution and Adolin is a soldier: it is known he may die. I don’t see the turmoil going much farther, but attack his weaker younger son….
This being said, I doubt Ialai figured this out: I think everyone on the outside likely expects Dalinar to be more hurt if he were to lose Adolin. It is only logical as one is “useless” while the other “isn’t”. Well, I am assuming this is how other people in Alethkar would reason.
@154 Tommy
This is actually an intriguing subject, thanks for bringing it back up. I would guess that their feud is due to conflicting aims, rather than personal spite. Jasnah’s apparent goal seemed to be to prepare humanity for the upcoming desolation or stop it in its tracks, which somehow conflicts with the Ghostblood endgame. As the Ghostblood includes worldhoppers, I anticipate their goals are at a Cosmere scale somehow.
I think that they’ll turn out to not be as evil (in intention) as they appear, and that they justify their brutal actions on an “ends justifying the means” basis – similar to Tarivangian. So my guess is that their overall aim is to take down Odium, and so they want the desolation to happen and hit Roshar hard in order to get him to expose himself. They could be working to help him, but I don’t think that fits as Mraize certainly isn’t stupid, yet believes Shallan will come to support their aims – and he must realise Shallan wouldn’t be willing to help Odium.
@157 Gepeto
I’m not saying that I think Dalinar is as intelligent or crafty as Sadeas (for example), but I do think you’re underselling him – he’s pretty insightful and can read people very well. For example his explanation to Adolin of Elhokar’s actions and the reason for the hunt at the start of the WoK along with his plan to deal with the Highprinces in WoR, also the way he reads Kaladin very well and sets up Amarin (to name but a few examples there are certainly more). Experience only gets you so far, especially when you’re trying new things. Though he does have considerable support from people smarter than he is – particularly Navani, but there are still plenty of signs of intelligence.
@149 – In the prologue, Eshonai thinks about the difference between the Parshmen and the Listeners. The slaves are in a different form than even Dull form. It might not be named slave form, but it is definitely different than Dull form. Yes, the Parshendi adopted Dull form to avoid what happened to the rest of the Listeners but those that didn’t had something changed, abilities removed.
@134 – There are WoB that says Listeners are able to do about anything in any form, it’s just some things can be easier in the right form. They can mate in most forms.
Parshendi means Parshmen who can think. Neither side objected to that name (WoK).
In the prologue above, Eshonai assumed at first that the Parshmen were in dullform being “taken care of.”
It might be more than just self-serving noblesse oblige that everyone believes the Parshmen are incapable of caring for themselves. To date no country on stage has free Parshmen. Lacking an Everstorm or Bondsmith, it isn’t clear that there was an option for “freeing” a Parshman.
I am reminded of something Hoid said in WoK. The class system based on eye color was stupid, it just so happened that there was a good reason for it.
So having his eyes opened by Rlain first and the Parshmen later what does Kaladin do? He acts with honor. The Parshmen also will have to learn…getting even with their former masters will only lead to a cycle of retribution and vengeance. And the everstorm showed that lacking military training means they will be so much cannon fodder.
@@@@@ 157 Gepeto. Hmm, maybe we interpret things differently. I believe that while people are currently fighting against Adolin, and angry at him, they still believe that he’s acting like he should, based on his rank and gender. So while the people he’s inconveniencing with his duelling want to get rid of him, the rest of lighteyed society might currently admire him for his actions
Their entire society is based around competition. Just like the four shardbearers in WoR, the highprinces team up to stop Dalinar and Gavilar in this flashback. In current times however, everyone admires Gavilar as a unifying force.
Since Adolin is acting like a proper Alethi lighteyes, people might not suspect him of murdering Sadeas, as that is not the way their society works. But I agree people would attack Adolin first, simply because he is a threat, and their entire society tells them this means they have to remove him, or they’ll lose the ‘game’.
Elle @136:
But would anybody even believe that Renarin had the skill to kill a seasoned warrior this way? Even one who was getting on in years? After all, there were signs of struggle, so Sadeas wasn’t taken by surprise and there clearly was an actual fight.
It is rather interesting that old Sadeas regressed so much from his younger self, who was brutal and a rapist, yes, but still somebody who saw and worked towards a larger picture, and acquired the worst qualities of Blackthorn – short-sighted greed – “I should have all that stuff!” – and unbridled Thrill addiction. Was it just him feeling his mortality as old age approached? Loss of interest in the future due to the lack of offspring? Envy?
Also, while he and Ialai are kinda cute in this flashback, we know that old Sadeas slept around and he likely never gave up his rapist ways, either. So, their relationship could have been complicated. IIRC, there was no great love towards her expressed in his PoVs in the previous books.
Oh, and “this is not Alethi way” might be what _men_ thought back then. IIRC at least a couple of PoVs in WoK and WoR, including Sadeas, thought that spying and assassinations were provinces of highborn wives.
Re: Kholins as ruffians, didn’t Dalinar briefly remember the house where he spent his childhood in WoR? IIRC, it was something along the lines of Davar household – rustic, but still a noble residence.
Hmm, and still no word on Adolin becoming a high prince. What?
—
Just because the parshendi were mentally handicapped doesn’t mean that they were treated well by being fed and ‘cared for’ to the extent that they were. Yes, that was good. It should have been better. People with mental illnesses aren’t treated as slaves with no free will, nor should they be. They should be cared for in a way that will help them. Parshmen in dullform, I consider to be in the same boat. As a result, keeping them alive is not necessarily something that they should express thanks for – especially since they were only kept alive to be slaves, not even kept alive because it was ‘right’ or ‘honorable’. (Not that I think it wasn’t right to keep them alive, I just believe that it was done poorly and improperly. Hoping this comes out clearly.)
—
Another note. I’m not sure what the mental capacity of dullform parshmen was (is) but the Alethi (and others) could have at least *tried* to teach them to be self-sufficient as a people. From what we have been shown, it seems nobody (at all, ever, anywhere – even outside of Alethkar) made an attempt to do this. They all just accepted what they were told – “Parshmen are dumb, not sentient. Slaves.”
—
Again, I really like how Brandon included all of this. It really makes us think about what we believe, and why (especially with the Tor serialization, where we get a few chapters and discuss it all).
—
Now, some replies:
@96 “As far as the Alethi were aware, the parshmen weren’t really sentient. They weren’t people.” Careful there. That sounds a lot like the argument back when slavery was a big thing in America – that PoC “weren’t people”.
@98 “What should the Alethi have done instead. Ignore them all and let them all die because they can not take care of themselves?” Of course not. But you seem to be implying that they only had two choices – enslave or kill (let die). They didn’t: they could have picked a third option, to care for the parshmen much as one would care for an ill relative.
The overriding difference between Adolin and Renarin is Adolin is the HEIR and Renarin the SPARE. If Renarin had not had his health problems he would have been trained in battle as Adolin was and everyone would assume they would be like Gavilar and Dalinar used to be. Adolin would lead and Renarin would be the war dog at his side, but things didn’t work out.
Adolin has been trained to become the High Prince. He already leads his father’s army. With Renarin not being trained as the backup, losing Adolin would seriously hurt the Princedom. Ialai would love that and perhaps feel it a fitting punishment for the loss of Sadeus.
Sadeus saw the battle as between himself and Dalinar. He didn’t really see Elhokar as a player. Ialai may now see it as between her and Dalinar. Killing him would be best but she also needs to remove Adolin and she likely doesn’t see Renarin as a player.
It actually seems fitting to me that Navani may be the one to eventually “neutralize” Ialai. The battle of the Babes! After all, Ialai probably sees her as problem again since if Dalinar was eliminated she would have Adolin and Elhokar at her side while Ialai was still alone.
@143: Rhyshadia have stone hooves. Herdazians (Lopen’s people) have stone fingernails. Herdazians are part Listener. Could Rhyshadia be part-native (pre-Shard) Rosharian too, and bonded to spren as listeners are?
164: You’re blaming the current Alethi for continuing to follow a practice that’s over 4,000 years old. I am not defending slavery, but I’m denying they have good alternatives before the arrival of the Everstorm–they could not just manumit the Parshmen, who would quickly have just died out. This obviously doesn’t apply to their practice of human (pseudo-Homo sapiens) slavery. The parshmen, as stated in these chapters, had literally had their minds and souls mutilated. The Alethi (and the rest of Roshar) had no idea how to fix them.
It’s as if you expect the humanlike Rosharians to spend millennia as nursemaids to helpless semi-mindless parshmen. Remember that they had no idea this was some sort of curse or injury. As far they knew, this was how parshmen naturally were.
It’s weird that their relatives the Listeners were unaware of the problem for millennia, mind you. 4,500 years is a long time to be in blissful ignorance.
@164 Ateroniax
I see where you’re coming from, and if we were speaking about anything comparable to Earth I would agree with you entirely. But in Roshar – the now-parshmen had previously been part of a legion who had periodically waged war on humanity with casualties reaching 90% and knocking them back practically to the stone-age each time. I don’t think we could really fault the 10% who survived for using any tool they can to rebuild or even revelling in using those who inflicted this upon them (from their perspective) to provide labour to rebuild. Not to mention they would understandably feel their very survival is dependent on keeping the parshmen subjugated. This is very different to being an apologist for slavery on Earth.
I’m trying to keep my memories of Shallan’s involvement with the Ghostbloods straight in my head – something that’s not easy given her multiple personalities. I’m thinking that, to the Ghostbloods and Mraize, Shallan would only be known as Jasnah’s former assistant (who they wanted to kill simply for that reason) and now as a Knight Radiant, Veil, on the other hand, would be known to Mraize based on her recent interactions with the group that led her being considered a member. It seems that a few of the commenters are assuming that Mraize and the group know that Shallan and Veil are one and the same, or that Shallan (undisguised) had some direct contact with the Ghostbloods in the recent past. Am I forgetting something here?
Mraize may have somehow figured out Shallan’s alternate identity, and that fact may be part of the conversation that’s about to occur, but I don’t believe that’s part of the story so far.
@164
“As far as the Alethi were aware, the parshmen weren’t really sentient. They weren’t people.” Careful there. That sounds a lot like the argument back when slavery was a big thing in America – that PoC “weren’t people”.
Except in this case it appears to be the truth. From everything we have seen Parshmen are no more intelligent than Rhyshadiam, in fact I would argue less than, since it is implied that they would simply sit and waste away if not given food/instruction. They were beasts of burden and treated accordingly. I don’t think you can fault the Alethi for their treatment of them (at least those that didn’t abuse them) in this instance. In fact it is strange that they would call them slaves at all.
I think it is going to be very interesting to watch how things develop as, in my mind, you have two groups that are going to dislike each other for a past where neither of them were in the wrong have to figure out a way to work together if they both want to survive/have the world survive. Will the Alethi be able to put aside their “knowledge” that the parshmen are nothing more than beasts of burden and treat them as humans in their own right? Stereotypes that ingrained (and previously truthful) will be hard to ignore. Will the parshmen be able to put aside their bitterness towards the Alethi caused by their memories of servitude and recognize that it is logically unfounded? Integrating them into society would have been hard enough without causing economic collapse or subjugating them to true slavery if they had all the time in the world, I am not sure how they do it with the time available to them.
@68 ZAD-man I know how you feel. On my first read-through of both WoK and WoR I would get to a point where I had trouble sleeping at night because I was so worried about Kaladin! But I refused to cheat and skim ahead. This three-chapters-a-week thing is brutal.
I’m a bit uncomfortable with the slavery discussion here, since I think some commenters are bringing in their preconceptions and feelings about slavery and race relations in this country. This applies somewhat to individuals who are commenting on what’s in the book itself, but really shows in some of the replies directed to other commenters. The simple fact is we’ve only been given hints, and still don’t really know what happened to create the Parshmen slaves, and how their situation evolved to what it was at the beginning of these books. Without that background, it’s very difficult to comment on the situation and a debate about their situation vs. real world slavery has no right answer. Add in a situation where the derogatory statements of those who created and defended the real world slavery system hundreds of years ago that certain people couldn’t survive on their own may actually be true in the case of the Parshmen, and I think it’s likely to be a very different situation in the book where our real world morals aren’t easily applied.
I’m looking forward to seeing where Sanderson takes this, and it’s an interesting topic for inclusion in a fantasy series. My point is simply that it’s too early in the series and the storyline to go too far with a debate about the morals of the situation, even though this week’s chapter is obviously meant to at least begin to raise the issue.
Well. This is annoying… I’ve posted a comment twice now, but it doesn’t seem to be showing up. This is a test…
@172 Wetlandernw
Seems to be working. :)
Regarding the discussion on whether Ialai would try to target/frame Adolin or Renarin for the murder in order to strike a blow at Dalinar… does anyone outside of the Kholin circle know that Renarin is a Knight Radiant? I imagine that would change some opinions on his level of usefulness. I look forward to seeing people’s reactions to it, and am a little bummed that we’ve barely seen any reactions to the new KR statuses yet. I love reading reactions.
I’m also curious to see if the dahn system changes to accommodate the Knights Radiant. If a regular shardbearer is automatically fourth dahn, what is a KR?
If Ialai decides to go after either Prince it will be disastrous for Dalinar and his plans. Adolin will be the Highprince of Alethkar and 3rd in line to the throne, maybe second if the riots back home were devastating enough to kill a royal heir (Elkohar’s infant son). Tarnishing Adolin makes it near impossible for Dalinar to abdicate his princedom to his capable, groomed heir without the type of action that would just confirm to the rest of the world that he’s the Warlord Butcher stomping through Roshar like he owns the joint.
Renarin getting blamed presents a similar problem. The Knights Radient suffer from a PR problem due to the Recreance. Dalinar is trying to restore that ancient order to it’s former glory. The proto-Radients will gather and congregate whatever happens. Will those proto’s come to Dalinar if one of the leaders of an entire Order of Knights (and you’re foolish if you think Dalinar isn’t envisioning Renarin’s role as the leader of the Truthwatchers)? Or will they set up elsewhere, thus splitting the efforts of the Surgebinders at the start of a Desolation?
Well there will be 10 books and it can’t go the heroes way all the time. Can anyone think of another epic fantasy series based around a doomsday scenario (other than WOT)? In the case of the Wheel, Rand just accepted his destiny by the end of book 3. I’m asking this because it might give us a clue as to just how inauspicious a beginning this world alliance against the Voidbringers is going to be or how many people will have to die before Roshar unites against Odium.
@168 Shallan found a note from the Ghostbloods in her room at the end of WOR.
Bah. Trying a smaller segment.
Please, can we just stop conflating slaveform and dullform? Several people have already stated this distinction quite well, but it keeps happening.
Dullform has a spren, and can hear the Rhythms. It was taken deliberately by a relatively small group who determined that they would no longer serve their old gods, and this was the best way to escape. Over the centuries, they added mateform, workform, nimbleform, and finally warform, but all share the characteristics of having a spren and hearing the Rhythms.
Parshmen were NOT dullforms. The Listeners call them “slaveform,” but Eshonai says they aren’t really a form at all, because they have no spren and no songs – they are unable to hear the Rhythms. This group was created deliberately by methods unknown (hinted by WoR Ch. 30 epigraph and stated by Gavilar in OB Prologue).
Just wondering if anyone knows if it has been established what the ratio of parshmen to humans is on roshar. Are there about the same number, a lot more humans. Just curious as it could lead to different results. If there are five or ten humans for every parshman there is a big difference.
Here’s the rest:
Clearly the parshmen were sentient, but it was not at all clear – especially from the outside – just how sapient they were.* Given the apparent lack of sapience, it’s not surprising that parshmen were treated as something between animals and humans; they were able to learn more skills than most animals (as well as having opposable thumbs to help out), but they seemed to have no inherent ability to care for themselves, either as individuals or as a species, without human guidance.
We are learning more of what it was like for the parshmen to be sprenless, and it appears that they were indeed sapient, but there was a disconnect between their awareness and their volition. Was it wrong to take away their spren? Perhaps; I don’t think we know enough about the situation yet to make that determination. Was it okay to create an arrangement to provide food and shelter in exchange for labor? Probably, though some will always abuse that exchange, given the apparent disparity of intelligence. Is there a difference between “right” and “understandable” in the way that arrangement drifted over time into ownership of property? I think so; it’s completely understandable that it would happen, but that doesn’t mean it should have happened. Would it be right, at this point, for humans to try to force the newly-awakened whatever-forms back into servitude against their will? How about a big NOPE on that one?!
* Sentient means that you have the power to perceive or feel things; you have consciousness. Most animals fall into this category. Sapient implies the use of wisdom and discernment in response to perception and consciousness. Humans, despite occasional evidence to the contrary, fall into this category. In SFF, there are many other races of sapient beings; on Roshar, it’s clear that the Listeners and the Aimians are sapient, and there’s some evidence that the Ryshadium may be as well.
@168
Mraize knows Shallan and Veil are the same person. They met up at the end of WOR, he told her he was having her brothers sent to join her, he called her Little Knife and told her to get a tattoo.
I think the mysterious figure Dalinar flips the bird might be the Stormfather, and I think Kaladin’s next Ideal will be something about not killing it it can be avoided. Given his previous Ideal, this might cause a problem if he thinks “the cause is just” to protect his little group. They can’t really “defend themselves” very well against any real coordinated attack either, so I’m expecting that to get messy fast.
I had some problems posting earlier as well. Was it the site?
@@@@@ 163 Isilel.
Oh no I don’t mean to say that anyone would believe Renarin did it. I just meant that Ialai, out of spite, might say something like ‘My husband was clearly killed by a member of Dalinar’s warcamp. Adolin/Renarin are high up in the chain of command, an that killer’s superior officer. So it was their failure of command that led to Sadeas’ death, and they must be punished.’ I just mentioned Renarin because I have no idea if he is in the chain of command, and thus vulnerable to this.
Now that I think about it, I might be influenced by some of the WoK prime chapters that came out a few weeks ago, which is why I brought up Renarin. Spoilers for that:
[Renarin, while still not good at actual fighting, is the tactical leader for a battle that led to the enemy king dying. Elhokar, having sworn to kill that king himself, punishes Renarin for this failure, and forces him to relinquish his shardblade.]
But my original argument was an attempt to find a way for Ialai to hurt Dalinar (by punishing his son, Adolin), which then evolved in some musings about whether Ialai could use the same tactic to hurt Renarin instead, if she believed that would hurt Dalinar more.
@@@@@ 166 Carl.
I think it’s slightly different. Ryshadium are the way they are, according to WoB, because there is investiture involved. A later WoB has said they evolve symbiotically with spren. So while I don’t believe they’re native, they’ve certainly evolved to acquire traits similar to other native species, like chasmfiends.
Small spoiler from The Thrill (flashback 4):
[Dalinar sees a small group of Ryshadium, followed by musicspren.]
I think the current theory is that you need a gemheart to bond a spren? In most cases at least. Knights radiant don’t though, and the Ryshadium are connected to them. So I wonder if they’ve evolved to have gemhearts, or if they do it through another method.
Looks like I’m going to miss out on the commenting with you all this week. Life is intruding. See you next Tuesday!
Kaladin: To protect the world from Desolation!
Dalinar: To unite all peoples within our nation!
Shallan: To denounce the evils of Odium’s spren!
Renarin: We can’t let this world get reset again!
All: Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Renarin!
K&S: Team Radiant blasts off in a Storm of Light!
D&R: Surrender now or prepare to fight!
Syl: Uhh… you guys ok?
Pattern: NO MATING!
(On an unrelated note, I’m loving these weekly installments. Can’t wait for the release!)
As has been made clear in the last couple dozen posts, dullform for Parshendi and parshmen are distinct. From Eshonai’s perspective in WoR, they lack spren and souls. Syl, in last week’s Chapter 17 preview, says (or perhaps, speculates),
“Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.”
Whatever the ancient Bondsmiths/Heralds did to the Voidbringers/parshmen, it seems to have crippled them, Realmatically, in the Spiritual Realm, and probably the Cognitive Realm, also. I had wondered if, perhaps, whatever allowed the parshmen to recover had made them fundamentally different from the Parshendi, but it seems as though they’re beginning to hear the Rhythms, if not yet able to attune them. I will admit that I’m surprised that anything of Odium could lead to some degree of spiritual/cognitive healing. We’ll need either Jasnah or another level-up by Kaladin/Syl, perhaps, to get a more detailed answer as to what’s going on. Fun stuff to theorized, though.
I lean toward the parshman’s viewpoint that they will have to fight Alethi – there was a tremendous amount of emphasis in WoK that Alethi lighteyes needed to reclaim stolen slaves or suffer a loss of honor among their peers. If parshmen were the most valuable of slaves, how much more desperate will some Alethi be to reclaim them once they realize they haven’t (all) turned into monsters of myth and legend? Rosharan culture is going to have to change tremendously, assuming it survives the Final Desolation. Heck, it probably needs to change in order to survive the Final Desolation.
As to young Dalinar, he seems, to me, to be willfully ignorant. He doesn’t want to know about things that aren’t drinking and fighting and well-cooked pork, so he just doesn’t. He’s not dumb, he just doesn’t care. So, to someone who does care about court intrigue and politics (Ialai, Sadeas, etc), he might as well be a moron on those topics. As he developed an interest in those things, we get the main storyline’s far more intelligent, thoughtful-seeming Dalinar.
The Kaladin chapter was pretty heavy, and seems to echo many dilemmas that face us here and now….
“And that’s why we should be free now? Because we’re acting like you? We deserved slavery before, when we were different? It’s all right to dominate us when we won’t fight back, but now it’s not, because we can talk?”…
“Because Sah is right. This is going to come to war. The Voidspren will drive the parshmen into an army, and rightly so, after what was done to them. Our kind will have to fight back or be destroyed.”
“Then find the middle ground.”
“Middle ground only comes in war after lots of people have died—and only after the important people are worried they might actually lose.
I do enjoy the banter between Shallan and Adolin, although I find her attitudes very frustrating at times. At least they seem to be on the same page. And then Mraise! Ack! Shallan is playing a very dangerous game.
54 @@@@@ maspect: yuck. Women like that make me sick.
@164 You forget that the enslavement happened after the Last Desolation. The Roshar was in complete ruin. And even modern Rosharan economies do not seem like those of lavish abundance. Simply taking care of another population of non-productive mental patients was and is simply not an option. Not to mention, I doubt they would’ve survived as a people without being “bred”, as disgusting as the idea sounds.
Is this the first time that something like the glowing spindly legged creature has been seen in a high storm? I recall other strange things in storms – but nothing like that.
And what to make of his strange instinct to step backwards for no reason? He wasn’t bonded to anything back then to whisper a suggestion into his ear….
@189 Daniel. Kaladin saw something similar when he and Shallan were stuck in the chasm during the highstorm:
Adam Canning @123. It has not been confirmed that Mraize is Thaylen. All Mraize said was Iyatil was his babsik. One does not have to be a native Thaylen to serve a babsik. Talik was a Reshi. Vstim was Talik’s babsik.
Restless @145. If Adolin has to give up his Shardplate to the Queen of Iri, Renarin would probably give Adolin the ShardPlate that Renarin used to use. As an acknowledged KR, I doubt Renarin will continue to wear Shardplate.
Isilel @163. You said “we know that old Sadeas slept around.” What is your source for this statement? I do not recall seeing anything in the text that he sleeps around. Before marrying Ialai, it would not surprise me to learn he was promiscuous. But the impression I got was that he did not sleep with other women after his marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@159: You make points. I will admit the flashbacks do depict a less flattering version of Dalinar. He is a born soldier, he loves hunting, he likes being ordered around and he cares not for why he fights as long as he fights. On the reverse, Adolin is a duelist forced to reluctantly become a soldier due to circumstances, he despises hunting calling it a butchery, he hates being ordered around without knowing why, while he is very obedient he constantly argue against orders so long as he does not understand why he has them, he doesn’t yearn to fight (fighting is not dueling) and is said to hate the warfare (Dalinar says this back in WoK). Hence, I read both character as very different, even if they do share a few key points.
@162: I think while Adolin is said to embody the “perfect Alethi”, he also is the Blackthorn’s son and Dalinar did nothing else if not killed his opponents. He also known to be Dalinar’s tool and weapon which makes me think others would easily believe he did it. Even if it is against Alethi ways, they would still support the allegations for mere vengeance and retribution on the man having humiliated them and taken away their Shards. Adolin is supposed to be a meaningless fop, not a force to be reckoned with: it may be many would be keen to put him back to his place.
@163: It could be Ialai did know about Sadeas sleeping around and did not mind. It may be she also is sleeping around…. not all relationships are the same and these two definitely seem like they respected and loved each other, no matter what else they may be.
@164: I wondered about Highprince Adolin. I am assuming he wasn’t told yet or else this would have triggered another bout of stress. Last time he was told he were to be Highprince, he had stomach cramps thinking about it.
@165: Something we forgot to mention is the Sadeas have been targeting Adolin since WoR. Sadeas spoke of shoving him down the cliff to hurt Dalinar… It seems logical Ialai would aim for Adolin before thinking about Renarin, but I may be wrong. We’ll see.
On Slavery: It is a heated discussion I have been staying out of as it is a very sensitive subject for many. I however think Alice @179 summarized the issue quite eloquently.
Textural evidence of Sadeas’s routine infidelity probably rests with Hoid’s vulgar joke at Sadeas’s expense in his capacity as King’s Wit during a feast in WOK. He says something along the line that Sadeas is routinely”in sluts”, to which Sadeas reddens in embarrassment and motions for his side sword in a threatening manner. Combining that with Dalinar’s first flashback showing (albiet obliquely) Sadeas’s nature as an unrepentant rapist and it isn’t such a stretch that his activities would go on despite marriage vows. It’s possible that rumors of Sadeas’s infidelity are just that, rumors without solid backing in fact. But judging from his character I find it more likely than not. He certainly respected his wife’s mind and may have even loved her, yet I doubt that feelings of compassion would ever stop a man like Sadeas from doing whatever he wanted or felt was in his own self-interest.
As for the Adolin/Dalinar similarly debate, I believe that their differences are superficial and a result of Dalinar and Evi raising their sons to be as little like the Blackthorn as humanly possible. What others see when they look at Adolin is that fierce passion and determination, the exceptional fighting skill, and a brutality bounded by rules. I contend that if Adolin would have been raised similarly to Dalinar he would have indeed been Blackthorn Jr.
The more I read, the less invested I become in Shallan and Adolin’s relationship. Can Kaladin please come back now???
Also, why does Sanderson give the best chemistry to the couples who don’t get together? (Vin and Kelsier, Vin and Zane, Wax and Marasi, Shallan and Kaladin). I like Adolin just fine, but after that highstorm chasm scene in WOR…come on! Stop teasing me Brandon!!
Maybe the spice reference is a misdirection. Maybe not. It sure adds two more options for the author in my mind though.
And many of us have likely seen someone making a caricature of him or herself when they’re super uncomfortable with how they feel in a certain situation. Or when they don’t know what to do. Kids do this kind of stuff all the time. Young adults who have “feelings” for someone else can to fall into this mindset as well.
Dalinar is overcompensating during the dinner to distract himself from his own awkward mindset. And his companions have no idea why. They just presume he’s bored, that he doesn’t like formal events, that his simplistic mindset finds the setting frustrating and unnecessarily complicated.
Navani has him all twitter-pated, that’s it. He’s depressed and embarrassed about it, so he plays at being unpredictably uncaring.
Was anyone else slightly bothered by Adolin’s suddenly very wise outlook on honor guards’ duty being as much about giving the guards honor? Or that he now suddenly sees value in being guarded? It doesn’t jibe with his disimissive view of his “minders” in the previous book. What changed his mind?
Regarding “toh” and the Aiel joke, is it possible that Brandon did that on purpose hoping his astute readers would make the connection? I think he’s clever enough to have come up with that and he’s clearly well connected with the WoT world (arguably more so than most living humans).
@197
I don’t think the idea of having “minders” was the upsetting part to Adolin (after all he had them on the battlefield and didn’t seem to be bothered by that). It was the nature of his guards and especially their leader, who at that point he was highly suspicious of that was the problem.
@48 – I think you’re being a little hard on Navani. She is clever, somewhat manipulative, ambitious, and very protective of those she cares about (which would include Dalinar here). But very judgemental and dismissive? I can’t think of strong evidence to support that.
As for how the chapter ended: that’s a great cliffhanger, which leaves you craving for more! And we only have to wait a few more days, not 3 weeks. How cool is that?!
@53 – Re: guards – I agree that Shallan should know better about needing guards by now, especially after what happened with Jasnah (at least, from Shallan’s perspective) and Sadeas.
@67 – Re: the parshman’s anger being justified – Sah thinks his anger is justified. Kaladin appears to think Sah’s anger is justified. I think his anger is justified. Even the Oathbringer blurb on Brandon’s website suggests “the newly kindled anger of the parshmen may be wholly justified.” You are entitled to believe as you will. However, I don’t personally subscribe to telling victims of atrocity or exploitation how they should feel; I believe we should generally listen to them when they tell us how they feel.
@82 – re: different goals at the Mraize/Ialai/Shadolin meeting – I agree. I am skeptical that Mraize and Ialai are fully aligned here. We have no proof that Ialai knows much about Mraize (she may just think he is an influential merchant, for all we know), merely that he is present when Adolin and Shallan walk in the room.
@95 – I agree that Mraize would likely have little issue with Shallan’s actions in the bar. If anything, she has increased the stature and mystique of the Ghostbloods by her actions. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the short, interested woman at the table was a Ghostblood informant or associate.
@131 – re my post @60 and the author of Oathbringer – Just to be clear, I am not excluding any character mentioned in the Stormlight Archives (from any era) in my question regarding authorship. Including Nohadon, the Sunmaker, the Heralds, etc. I am challenging the previously popular stance that the author is almost certainly Jasnah. My initial impression was that Oathbringer was likely written some time in Roshar’s past, and I haven’t seen any significant evidence to disprove that theory. Sadees is as good a guess as any (and arguably better than most). In the whole “Jasnah vs the field” bet, I’m still laying down some big money on the field.
@142 & 157– Re: young Dalinar – He is demonstrably not dumb. He understands tactics, the value of good people, and the value of a good knife! True, he only focuses on the issues he wants to focus on, but that isn’t close to being dumb.
@191 – re: Mraize – Fair point; the text does not directly state that he is Thaylen and Shallan doesn’t comment about his eyebrows being overly long.
Double post, but it was worth it for some 2x hunny!
Re: the epigraphs, it may help to see them all back to back when considering the author (or not). Here they are, by Chapter, for those who don’t want to go searching through all of the different posts:
Whoever the author is, they seem rather preachy…
@199 KiManiak
The problem with “anger” is that it is largely a waste of time. The Parshmen can be angry all they want, and why shouldnt they be? But should they be angry at Kaladin? And should they base their decision whether they want to let him help them on that anger? The modern view you express in “listening to the victims of atrocities and exploitation when they tell us how they feel” is all very well when there is no immediate existential problem that needs to be solved. But in the face of what is basically an apocalypse it may not be the right time for that…
I think Mraize might be the head of Ialai’s spy network and he feeds her information that it is advantageous to the Ghostbloods for her to know.
The assassin that went after Gavilar might have been from Sadeas. They had reached the limit of what conquest could do. Maybe he thought it was time for him to take over. If it failed he could easily say how terrible it was. He showed no issues with using assassins later in life.
@109 elle: I believe Navani “retired” more because she was the old queen. Society focused on the new King and Queen and she was expected to gracefully step to the sidelines. I don’t think that would have happened if she had simply been married to a Highprince.
@197 comanderzander: A position in an honor guard would reward soldiers for good service. The use of an honor guard adds respectability and formality and I would imagine indicates respect. He’s dismissive of his “minders” because they did none of those things. They were former bridgemen meant to protect him from harm.
And I’m going to repost some thoughts from the earlier chapters because I’m late to reading these:
Shallan grew up in a home with domestic abuse. That makes people very good at reading others. Renarin is on the autism spectrum. He likely has problems reading social cues and doesn’t present normal social cues. I think that is why she finds him creepy. He doesn’t read like a normal person.
Kaladin and Lirin have different ideas how to treat an injury. I don’t believe it’s because Lirin is a proto radient. It’s because Kaladin is a battlefield surgeon. His focus is on quickly saving a life and stabilizing a patient so he can move on to the next injured person. He has been proving immediate lifesaving treatment for battlefield injuries with limited resources. Lirin is a civilian surgeon, he wants to make sure his patient makes a full recovery. They go about assessing treatment very differently. It doesn’t mean Lirin has been using stormlight to heal.
The last time we saw Eshonai was during a highstorm. I hope that she changed forms.
Storms! I just had a thought. Gavilar gave the black sphere to Szeth, we don’t know where Szeth put it. Szeth had access to Urithiru. Urithiru is the most secure place he could have put it. People have theorized that the sphere might contain one of the Unmade. What if the influence of black sphere is ultimately responsible for the second murders?
And finally a crazy suggestion for the author of Oathbringer; It’s Ialai, she ate men’s food!
@@@@@192 Gepeto.
You’re absolutely right in that people used to think Adolin was a fop with nice clothing, but that was before he won his blade. Do they still think that? They’re ‘at war/in competition’ with him at the moment, but he is a shardbearer and on the frontline of a lot of battles. So I imagine people of his direct rank (aka his ‘rivals’) do want to put him back in his place, but all the other lighteyes might not mind as much.
Basically I’m trying to guess people’s opinion of Adolin based on Dalinar’s past and present reputation. He started out as a ‘nobody’, then started conquering the nation, at which point people thought he was an upstart, until he won, killed the opposition, and people started admiring him. Of course, in the current story Adolin is still an ‘upstart’, and his lighteyed peers are still a problem, so your argument that other people in that part of society don’t really like him is probably true. :)
@@@@@194 EvilMonkey.
Hmm, that’s interesting, but if that’s true, doesn’t that mean that either Dalinar had absolutely nothing to do with raising Adolin for the first few years, which is possible, or he changed from the Blackthorn earlier than was implied before?
If it’s the first, there is a WoB that says Adolin got most of his morality from his mother, so she would have been responsible for his education. From what we’ve seen in the flashbacks, she’s a bit worried by Dalinar’s.. brusqueness, and probably tried to teach Adolin differently. In the meanwhile, Dalinar could be a distant father, always off on campaign, revered by the other lighteyes, and idolized by Adolin.
Or, his change happened earlier or much more gradually than we knew before. As far as I know, Dalinar started to really change after Gavilar’s death, just 6 years ago, slowly starting to pick up some of the codes, and then picking up momentum and becoming stricter in how he and his men follow them.
I think this is supported by the idea that the lighteyes are only now really starting to turn away from him. WoK gives the idea that his reputation sank really quickly just before the story started. I can’t imagine people acting this annoyed if he’d been doing it for over 20 years.
So that makes me really curious to see just how Dalinar interacted with his children before the story started.
@@@@@ 202 IntelligentDonkey.
True, Navani’s position is a bit different because she was the queen, and I don’t imagine this is a problem lower ranked women are dealing with. But the Highprinces used to be mini-kings up until a relatively short time ago. So I believe Ialai, as a Highprince’s wife, would have to step to the side to make way for Sadeas’ heir the same way Navani had to do.
IntelligentDonkey@202, I’m (finally) on my pre-OB WoK reread and only last night had the Szeth interlude where it was said that he hid the black sphere in Jah Keved in fear that his new master will find it and take it away; since he didn’t know what it was, that possibility worried him. So, not in Urithiru.
@194: I am thinking Adolin dislike of warfare, hunting, butcheries and slaughtering are inherent to his personality and not something his father ingrained into him. Worst, Dalinar spent years trying to convince Adolin ought to love hunting… Adolin speaks of how tired he is of being lectured on hunting by his father during his very first viewpoint, stating how nobody seems to accept he just hates it.
I completely disagree Adolin could have ever been the Blackthorn Jr. The Blackthorn revealed in war and slaughter: Adolin just hates it. Being good at fighting doesn’t mean your heart is into killing. It is the same as Kaladin/Lirin: just because Kaladin is good at surgery, it does not mean his heart is in it and he would have followed this path had Lirin not pressed it upon him. The same is true about Adolin: he would have never become a soldier had Gavilar not been killed whereas Dalinar would have always been one, no matter the circumstances (it is why he ends up giving the Plate to Renarin: how would he feel had someone prevented him from being a soldier, he couldn’t conceive his life if not a soldier). This isn’t upbringing, it is massive difference in between the father and the son.
Adolin seems more like his mother: kind, not wanting to take part into the game, never bullying anyone. This isn’t to say Dalinar and Adolin have nothing in common, but what made Dalinar the Blackthorn, Adolin doesn’t have it.
@195: This is a matter of personal tastes. Some readers sincerely believe Adolin/Shallan have a much better chemistry than Kaladin/Shallan. I believe they have a better chemistry as they are able to laugh, to tease each other and to talk of intimate uncomfortable things which are part of the every day life. All Kaladin and Shallan have is one scene down in a chasm during extraordinary circumstances, some readers really loved it while others think it is over-estimated.
I also found the Wax/Steris to be one of my favorite romance. It unfolded in a beautiful satisfying manner, but as I said, all tastes are personal.
@197: He does not like to be guarded or to be cared for: he believes the guards are wasted on him and should be used to protect his family, not him. His jibe however wasn’t against the concept of guards, it was against them being tasked to care for him. Adolin needs no one and resources ought to be given to others, never to him oh so he thinks.
@199: She judges Evi harshly upon one meeting. Also, back in WoK, she passes a few pejorative comments towards her.
Alright, the knife convinced me, Dalinar is not dumb. Joke apart, as I said, I will try to revise my opinion of young Dalinar, but let’s say he hasn’t impressed me with his mental capacities yet. We’ll see how he evolves.
@203: They do if we take his interactions with Relis and company into consideration. He is basically dismissed by everyone and his winning of his Blade happened so long ago, they all seem to think he got lucky. Mind, I don’t think they still think it, but Relis made it clear: they wanted to teach him a lesson, to put him back at his place. I can’t see the feeling dying out just because Adolin won and Relis has brothers…
Adolin followed his father onto the warcamps as a boy: Dalinar was involved in raising him.
@Celebrinnen 204: That does sound familiar now that you mention it. So maybe it has Nergaoul and is why the source of The Thrill has moved?
A few thoughts, late:The big question of the recreance is why. Could it be a response to the parshmen? That something as extreme and horrible as that could be done by a kr and one bound to oaths? We’re the Soren who died that day murdered or suicides to end the kr as misguided and wrong once and for all?
How evil is the Vorin church and its teachings to allow the parshman situation? I sense Kaladin’s next oath (even if they are marbled) and wonder if he will stay with them as his squires and adoptive family?
I want the Adolin truth out there sooner than later. Has Oathbringer finally been found?
shshshsh intrigues me a *lot*. I suspect after a wild Evie appears that even back then Dalinar journey was in full swing.
As for Urithiru, I’m thinking it was crafted from a voidbringer’s body: unhallowed, magic investing , and still messing with people’s heads.
IntelligentDonkey @206, I never thought about this, but yes. Perhaps?
@@@@@ 205 Gepeto.
You are right about Relis, and his surrounding peers indeed do not like him or think he’s worth anything (though, is Relis a soldier, or simply a duellist? That might influence his opinions), but I still hold it’s untrue to say ‘everyone hates Adolin’, especially the lighteyes from neutral/allied camps. (that he didn’t beat in any duels). Since that was our original discussion, which we kind of wandered away from. :)
Yes, Adolin followed his father from camp to camp, but how old was he when he started? The answer could change things. What I originally meant was to give the only options I could see if EvilMonkey’s statement was correct. The case where Adolin and Dalinar were so similar that if Dalinar had simply raised him according to his morals at that time, Adolin would indeed be the Blackthorn jr.
In that case, the only way I could see Adolin turning out as we see him (which is very different from the Blackthorn), is if Dalinar was a distant father figure. And to be honest, he could still be that even if they were in the same location. Dalinar himself said he was mostly raised by a parshman nurse. Lighteyes, just like old nobility in our world, might not be very involved parents.
If he did that, while Evi was a much more involved parent, Evi could have steered Adolin away from that, and imparted him with a sense of morality very different from younger Dalinar’s. But I believe this situation is mostly hypothetical, and that Adolin could never be like the Blackthorn. While Dalinar has a certain brutality/intensity he binds with rules, Adolin is, well, a firebrand, he gets angry, as Sadeas used to say, but he tempers this with morality.
Just for kicks go reread WoK when Adolin is seeking advice from Kadesh on Dalinar’s mental state. Knowing what we know now that cautious advice if suddenly full of foreboding and weighted meaning even if we don’t know the whole story. In so many words he says that only Adolin is in a position to assist Dalinar in dealing with past.
@36 definitely wondered the same thing . . . . seemed so strangely careless. Lots of things about that sequence in fact. I know the entire point is breaking out of Shallan character and into Veil; but it just seems like such a clumsy way to go about integrating into that sphere of society, not to mention beginning her investigation. Just not very Shallan-like.
Also did anyone feel like the bits between each spren and its respective KR (specifically Shallan and Pattern and Kaladin and Syl) are a bit rushed or something? The spren are such key figures in so so many ways, and I feel like there is a little less focus on their relationships in these first chapters. part of me wonders if it’s deliberate and part of me just doesn’t like it. Or am I totally wrong? Also I read it in a half-stupor because of exhaustion and I think I missed sections. I just feel like the whole emotional connection within each pair is being underplayed or ignored a bit. . . .
I had vowed to wait until November to begin, because I knew the waiting would be torture once I actually READ some of the book. Then stumbled across Sanderson’s website quite randomly and of course the first thing I saw was “Oathbringer index” . . . . needless to say couldn’t wait. Now I have 6 days and 23 hours of torture each week, but SO worth it!
Also, is anyone else really hoping to hear more from Wit soon?
@205: Adolin has no friends, so while my statement might have been bold and an over-statement, I have yet to see one lighteyes, other than his family, respond positively to Adolin. Just one. All the ones we have seen either hates him, jealous him or wants to manipulate him.
I honestly do not know why so many think Adolin was predestined to become exactly like his father… I highlighted several core differences in between both characters which have nothing to do with upbringing. Whether or not Dalinar was an absent father, Adolin hates hunting, butcheries and the warfare: all of this is supported by the textual within the books. We have indications Adolin did spend a lot of time with his father, so even if he were 6 when he started trailing along with his father, Dalinar still had a strong influence on him. I don’t understand the argument wanting the only possible explanation for Adolin not turning out like the Blackthorn was Dalinar not being involved in raising him. Based on my reading, Adolin is no Blackthorn because he’s just not the same person: he doesn’t enjoy the same things as his father, he doesn’t value the same things and if he has the same physical capacities, it does not make him embrace his father’s former path more willingly. Skills and personality are two very different things.
Also, Adolin never were out-of-control: I thought the flashbacks highlighted it well enough. We have seen Adolin during battles: he never behaves like Dalinar, stabbing dying people and demanding challenges and… doing what Dalinar will do within his next flashback. He also would have NEVER killed the boy (I do think Dalinar did kill him). Adolin would never seek to harm anyone for his own benefit: he never even thinks of his own benefit, he thinks of others first while young Dalinar is very selfish and self-absorbed.
What Adolin is, is an emotionally driven individual. He has strong emotions, a lot of them: we see it a lot in OB so far. Dalinar was driven by one thing: himself and wanting to fight. Adolin just gets impressed/affected by things much more easily. Dalinar even comments on how he expects Adolin to react more strongly when he marries Navani. This is not a reaction Dalinar, young or old, would have had.
Apart from them both being very straight-forward honest individuals who are oriented towards practice and hard-work (that’s the part they do have in common), I see important differences in between father/son. Adolin is more kind and while he tries to be honorable, he will break his word if it means helping others, something his father would never agree on.
I don’t know how to better explain it. To me, Adolin’s main dilemma is he can’t accept he is not his father, he tries to be his father, but he just can’t, not when the stakes rise. What works for Dalinar just does not work for him, but he can’t figure it out because he has too much pressure to be exactly how Dalinar wants/needs him to be.
As such Adolin is not Dalinar’s copycat: he is his own person, but I guess everyone’s millage vary on this one. I seem to be reading the characters very differently than most.
@@@@@ 212 Gepeto.
To be fair, I’ve yet to see even one lighteyes that has actual friends. The only relationships I’ve seen are ‘family member’ and ‘potential enemy’. Courtships can go in either direction, as we’ve seen with Adolin, who definitely didn’t manage to end even one relationship on a positive note. Dalinar’s friends don’t count, as he managed to make friends with both Sadeas and Amaram. Clearly he’s bad at this. :)
I can kind of understand why people think Adolin and Dalinar are similar. Like you say, they’re both passionate and driven, they like to keep busy, prefer direct action, and I think they both enjoy hanging out with people (Dalinar says he prefers to spend the feast with his men in this flashback, rather than with the lighteyes).
But at their core, they’re different people.
Maybe I said something unclear, or you’re making a more general argument, but I talked about a hypothetical situation where Adolin only turned out differently because his parents consciously steered him away from being like his father.
The text doesn’t really indicate that particular situation is true, in my opinion, and as I don’t disagree with your argument about Adolin here, I hope I didn’t say anything that sounds like I did.
However, I still think Dalinar was not the most involved father on a day-to-day basis. He’d be interested in Adolin’s progress in fighting, but as that one WoB said (book signing, so not official-official canon, but it doesn’t seem like it’s something that has to be changed because of continuity), he left morality and probably other lessons like that to Evi (and Jasnah and Navani taught him some politics). Then again, the flashbacks could totally prove me wrong. That’s the interesting journey Dalinar’s going to go on through this particular storyline.
@@@@@ 210 Tommy.
Well, we definitely know Kadash is haunted by what Dalinar did. To be honest, I got nervous as soon as Dalinar called Kadash ‘an old friend’. He didn’t pick his last two old friends very carefully..
Kah-thurak@201 re: The problem with “anger” is that it is largely a waste of time. I guess it can be depending on the reason and application. But then, couldn’t that also be true of other basic emotions like “happiness,” “sadness,” “fear,” or “disgust,” when you again factor in the why, the what and the how? The thing is, those emotions (especially anger) tend to be catalysts. Anger can lead to passion, to courage, to perseverance, to progress, and ultimately to (good or bad) action. Or, to quote Mr. Nancy/Orlando Jones in the American Gods adaptation: “Anger gets sh*t done.”
As for letting Kaladin help them, I’d encourage you to read the chapter again. They are accepting his help. They are listening to Kaladin, while still being angry. That isn’t really the issue. Actually, the root of Sah’s anger and frustration are articulated rather well, for those who are willing to listen to him.
Re: the “right time” to listen – The problem I have with the “wait until the right time” response, is that it’s prone to being a weak excuse offered by those not directly involved who wish to ignore victims or dismiss uncomfortable topics. There generally isn’t a good time to discuss uncomfortable issues; by definition people don’t want to face them and so they often will find ways to not acknowledge the validity of the issue or just brush the issue aside. And so, victims continue to be silenced and atrocities often continue.
(Not to tie this in to the real world too much, but this type of sentiment is often used in America to silence victims of sexual harassment, abuse, police brutality, injustice. To some, there will never be a “right time” to listen.)
Bringing it back specifically to the apocalypse on Roshar: Wouldn’t it make sense to try to have the thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) of Parshmen not be your enemy? Wouldn’t a smart tactic to convince the liberated Parshmen to not fight against the humans be to listen to the Parshmen, establish communication and ties, and convince them that they should ally with the humans? If the humans aren’t even willing to listen to the Parshmen when they try to communicate basic emotions like anger, frustration, sadness, or despair, then why should those Parshmen believe that the humans are worthy of allying with at all?
For all we know, “Unite them” could mean unite every sapient being on Roshar against Odium. And you can’t unite nobody if you’re not willing to listen…
Some people are seriously underestimating the abilities of the slave form Parshmen. And just because a humanoid cannot speak words, does not mean they are incapable of thought.
These slaves have been used for: Farming, child care, animal care, weaving hats, and yes, pulling carts like we use horses. Go back to the chapter in WoK when Jasnah and Shallan are talking about all the places the Parshmen are used in society. We don’t use horses or chimpanzees to weave hats or to help care for our children. Please stop using any argument that implies the Parshmen are helpless without humans or that they are sub-human.
Kaladin – has never been around or seen a Parshmen child before. That implies that humans are not use in caring for the Parshmen children.
The Parshmen, despite having their minds clouded – were not rendered incapable of taking care of themselves. They were rendered unable to VOICE objections. They were rendered unable to have the free will to walk away.
This is horrifying in many ways.
Thank you to all the commenters who have realized how troubling the Parshmen enslavement is.
And yes, their anger at everyone human – is totally understandable.
Could we avoid having variations on the “Not All Men” arguments here, please?
Where the story goes from here about these issues, will be fascinating.
@@@@@ 215 Braid_Tug.
Yes, this. To add one more thing to your argument, Sigzil has told us (and he’s pretty trustworthy) that parshmen have funeral rites. Ones they don’t allow anyone else to participate in. There’s no way the humans taught them to do this, so this is something they must’ve passed on generation after generation, probably all the way from before they lost their spren.
Re: when does the Blackthorn become civilized.
I think this current flashback is the early start. He is already noting that things are different now and is feeling left behind and “useless” on the political battlefield.
And here is also where the WOK is first mentioned to Dalinar.
And he agrees to be married for political reasons and accepts that Navani is truly lost to him. He may not like it but the world and his life are changing.
This reminds me of having to wait week to week to see the new tv episode of whatever was popular. I WANT INSTANT GRATIFICATION! Oh, and a free book!
I tend to agree with wetlandr, “they seemed to have no inherent ability to care for themselves, either as individuals or as a species, without human guidance.” There are other examples in the Cosmere of creatures lacking the volition to care for themselves, through no fault of their own such as the Koloss. Once the malignant influence of Ruin was moderated by Harmony (and who knows that other changes he made to effect that change) they were able to survive and thrive on their own. If the Parshmen are different, that would be the sort of cheap manipulation that I would not expect to see in the Cosmere. “Please stop using any argument that implies the Parshmen are helpless without humans or that they are sub-human.” Um. They are not human. They are severely limited in ability. Intersectionality has limited application here IMO.
@212 Gepeto
I know your post is aimed at a few of us, but I do think we both ended up exaggerating each others stances in our heads. I was never trying to say that Adolin is exactly like Dalinar, I was just disagreeing with earlier comments (from you and others) that I interpreted as saying they were nothing alike.
They do of course have as many differences as similarities – ranging from superficial (such as whether or not they love hunting) to more profound (such as Adolin being more selfless). Though I do still see their similarities as stronger than your interpretation – particularly their single mindedness and desire to ignore things they’re not interested in (only weaker than their senses of duty).
@214 KiManiak
I rather doubt that you could point out an example where one people/tribe/nation/”race” beeing angry at another over past grievances has yielded positive results. Usually such things just escalate into new, more terrible, conflicts. On an individual level things are somewhat different, but on the whole a rational approach yields more positive results than acting out of anger. The point you make that humans and parshmen should work together instead of fighting as it would benefit both sides is exactly the reason to set “anger” aside and come to an agreement.
@215 Braid_Tug…just when I thought the slavery debate had run its course….for all of the examples you cite of Parshmen having the ability to do certain things well, others could cite specific text examples where it is clearly said Parshmen couldn’t survive without being told what to do.
I have a feeling that the Parshmen slavery issue will be a major subplot of this book, and I can’t wait to see where Sanderson goes with it. We just don’t have enough information at this point to make sweeping statements about this subject and claim others are wrong. I realize this is largely a speculation thread, and most of us are here because it’s fun to share ideas about where various plot items of the story are going as they unfold. However, in this case the opinions that many are bringing are simply a reflection of their real world situation and experiences, and it adds a much sharper tone to the debate that just doesn’t need to be there.
On the fun side, anyone have speculation when we may get a Jasnah chapter, or when she may rejoin the action? After the big reveal at the end of WOR, it’s been a bit frustrating not to see her make an appearance yet.
@191 Iyatl isn’t the Thaylen in the relationship with Mraize. She’s a Hunter from Southern Scadrial, so she’s unlikely to be the source of the term. That implies either Mraize is a Thaylen weeboo or he’s Thaylen.
I stated that had things gone diffently in Adolin’s childhood that he could have become Blackthorn Jr. They are more similar at their core than many would like to credit. The main thing is they are focused, driven and intense men who don’t show much interest in things they are not passionate about. They are men who intentionally bind themselves as a means of controlling those passions and look for others to trust. They are men to whom loyalty is the most important thing to them. Those are core personality traits. I’m not saying that Adolin is Blackthorn Jr. or that he’s destined to become so. I’m also not convinced that Dalinar had to be a distant parent for the differences between them to manifest. I believe the circumstances in which they were raised and the people they chose to be loyal to are the main reasons why Adolin did not turn into a monster.
We don’t know much about Dalinar’s upbringing but we do know he grew up in an Alethkar that was fractured nearly beyond unification. He chose to follow Galivar, and the more we find out about him the more we realize that he was just as much a monster as the Blackthorn, just with better PR and a golden tongue. Dalinar became what the times demanded of him, a peerless warlord. Yet with the flashback where he gains his archer we still see traces of Dalinar the Statesman creeping along the edges. He binds himself with loyalty and steadfastness to his decisions. He places his trust and loyalty in men who are ruthless and brutal.
Adolin meanwhile grew up in a time where the wars of Unification were mostly over. Dalinar is older, tempered, married to a woman for which not everything is a battle. He has Evi as an influence, not just genetically but as a living example of compassion. Dalinar was so good at war he was close to putting himself out of a job. The times didn’t call for Adolin to become a conqueror; that allows him to use something else to bind his intensity, to give his talents a focus. He chose love and family. And the people he chose to direct his focus were much better people than Dalinar was ever gifted with. Dalinar had Galivar and Sadeas. Adolin had Evi, Navani, Jasnah and an arguably more mellow Dalinar. Bottom line, their environment has as much to do with Adolin not being Blackthorn Jr as anything else I’ve seen so far, either texually or WOB.
People keep asking when to expect a Jasnah chapter.
I’m thinking “maybe one interlude, maybe not until the next book.” She isn’t a viewpoint character in this book. Why would she get a chapter?
@213: Well, I have to base myself on the textual and, within the textual, we have seen no lighteyed being sympathetic towards Adolin, but we have seen a great many being antagonistic towards him.
Thanks for clarifying your thoughts, our positions do not seem so different than I initially thought.
I however do not think Adolin’s parents turned him away from soldering, to the contrary: he was put under training at the age of 6. Renarin yearns to be a soldier and consider himself a failure for not succeeding, had his parents turn the boys away from this path, I’d say young Renarin’s life would have been easier.
My interpretation is thus while Adolin share some characteristics with his father, what he does not share are the ones which allowed Dalinar to grow into a monster.
@220: I agree saying they are nothing alike was a gross over-statement on my part. I was focusing on the Blackthorn and the blood thirsty monster Dalinar once was: this man, I firmly believe Adolin would have never grown into, no matter his upbringing. He just isn’t this person.
@224: My problem with your argumentation is I feel you put a too strong importance on upbringing and not enough on what defines an individual’s core personality, what is innate. While it is true both Dalinar and Adolin are driven and passionate individuals, they aren’t expressing those traits in the same manner. Adolin has a real passion: dueling which he uses to fuel most of his energy. Dalinar’s passion, if he ever had one, likely was killing and/or warfare. No matter how we shuffle the story, we have to agree Dalinar is a born soldier while Adolin isn’t and this, this is not upbringing. Dalinar would have never raised his son not to be a soldier: all Alethi are raised to be soldiers. This has been the leading argument to explain Renarin’s misfortune, how he is forced to evolve in a society which glorifies soldiers. So how is it Adolin was raised not to like warfare? How is it he never yearned not to be a soldier? Him, who was put under training at the age of 6, him who has spent a great deal lot of time on warcamps, around soldiers, so how is it he never wanted it? I disagree it has anything to do with Dalinar or Evi or the fact Alethkar was conquered: Adolin just isn’t a born soldier. He is kind, altruistic, eager, helpful: he just doesn’t have the right inclination to want to be a soldier which isn’t to say he can’t be a good one. It is the same argument which explains how Kaladin is a good surgeon, but yet doesn’t enjoy it nor want to do it.
In short, the fact Adolin grew up in a different environment doesn’t explain it. If it did, then Renarin wouldn’t be broken over not being able to be a soldier. Society hasn’t changed because Alethkar was unified. War never stopped.
My point is thus, independently of environment and parenting, Adolin would have never been the Blackthorn because the characteristics which turned Dalinar into it, Adolin doesn’t have them. To be the Blackthorn, you need to be self-centered, selfish, self-absorbed, barbarous, unrefined, brutal, angry, highly vulnerable to the Thrill, challenging and, more importantly, you must love killing over people. Adolin has none of those characteristics which isn’t to say he doesn’t have anything in common with his father, but he just doesn’t have that.
@225, Carl: Because she’s on the cover of this one.
@222, JMS: I think the topic is keeping the overall comments down. But I do not think it will or should go away.
@216: Good addition.
@218: this serialization is highlighting how well the SA will do as a TV show.
Re: alternating chapters being planned out – Brandon has a habit of doing this. He started the pattern in Elantris. OB does not follow it as strictly, but part 1 has done it often enough to feel planned.
Oh, speculating about if/when a Jasnah POV chapter happens?
Some friends and myself were already discussing that last night, I’m sure it’s a conversation that’ll amuse the beta readers. If you look at the plan for Oathbringer, there’s 4 tertiary characters, 2 novelletes, and then the short stories all scattered about throughout the book…but specifically they’re mostly all out of Part 1 – they pop up more in later Parts and of course the Interludes which won’t be in the online stuff (unless of course we get an audio Interlude – I remember Wetlandernw mentioning there was some discussion on that, and I remember how for Words of Radiance they released maybe the cruelest chapter for a preview!)
As to why Jasnah would get a chapter (and probably more), that’s because Sanderson said during the Oathbringer writing process (in a Reddit post) that we’d get some of her. All that stuff can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/41r099/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_2/
I was joking with my friends that the “worst case” scenario is Jasnah being Tertiary Character 4, because she wouldn’t show up until Part 4 in the book!
Also I haven’t commented on here in at least a year, but I’ve been following the comments on these Oathbringer chapters enough that I finally felt like I should jump back in. Especially since I just finished a big reread of the Stormlight Archive so far.
Fun fact: in the final Sadeas POV in Words of Radiance, Ialai acts a bit weird at the very end when Sadeas is watching Dalinar leave – this being after she even mentioned they could try a coup. I’m not sure if this is related to Mraize being there with her in Oathbringer, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she ends up being more sinister and capable than Sadeas was. Even if not it is a great cliffhanger for a chapter.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 215, thank you for your post about the Parshmen. I don’t know what the answer is to their situation, but I can’t help but think there was a better solution than enslavement of the entire species. I know a part of their mind was removed that limited their ability to speak and make choices for themselves, but can they learn, grow, and evolve? If they can care for children and do household chores, they must have some ability to learn. I have seen many comments here and elsewhere saying they have no right to be resentful or angry towards their captors, that they are just beasts of burden, that humans did them a favor by enslaving them. I am trying to look at it from all sides, but am struggling to understand that point of view.
It will be interesting to see how humans treat them going forward. They will no longer have the excuse that parshmen cannot think and care for themselves. I think they could be an ally in the fight against Odium, but it’s hard to see how we’ll get there.
@224 EvilMonkey and 226 Gepeto
Am I the only one reading your back and forth and thinking of Randolph and Mortimer Duke?
Kah-thurak@221 –
First, it appears that we are moving away from my initial point that the parshmen are justified in their anger, so I want to bring that back to the forefront. That point shouldn’t be causally dismissed, brushed to the side or glossed over as it appears some commenters here want to do (the whole “what good does being angry at being exploited and enslaved do now when they should just move on” mindset). Sah (and any/all parshmen who feel similarly) are justified in their anger. Full stop.
Now, re your request: Most revolutions and major social movements of change (which is what Parshmen empowerment and equality would be on Roshar) stem partially (if not fully) from anger related to past and current grievances and injustices. Like I say @214, anger is a catalyst; that anger needs to be acknowledged and then channeled towards productive outcomes (resulting in the aforementioned revolutions, movements, etc).
As for conflict, yes those in power rarely want to give up that power or otherwise abruptly change the status quo without the presence of some type of potential conflict. It is highly unlikely that parshmen owners will now give up their slaves without threat of force; remember, slavery is legal in much of Roshar. How does your suggestion of the parshmen setting aside their anger solve the problem of their former owners trying to reclaim what they believe is still their property? Why would those former owners accept this “agreement” you suggest, if the parshmen only bring to the table a meek acceptance of whatever the Alethi suggest, in the name of “the greater good?”
Let me flip the script on you now, Kah-thurak. Can you point out examples of major revolution or radical social change to the status quo that didn’t directly come from, or channel the demands and energy of, the disenfranchised or disempowered; and which were also not connected to some type of conflict? That didn’t take years, if not generations, to occur?
@@@@@ 224 EvilMonkey.
I’m glad you clarified your argument a bit more. because I didn’t quite agree with the statement that ‘the differences between Dalinar and Adolin are superficial’. If that’s true, and the Blackthorn raised a son who was exactly like him in personality, I couldn’t see how he turned out to be like Adolin. That’s why I mentioned he was probably a more distant father in that case.
And yes, you’re right that Dalinar and Adolin are both very loyal people, but I believe that Adolin combines his loyalty with a certain level of critical thinking (which Dalinar never seems to do when it comes to following his brother). We see him do this with Dalinar constantly. And when he gets a good reason, he accepts it. Because of that, I don’t believe he could ever become the Blackthorn. He might become as successful a commander, using interesting and original battle tactics, charging into battle heroically (or stupidly), etc.
But he would approach battles in a different way, and work around things he believed were immoral. Like with the Parshendi, he cut through the wall to get to the other army, but hated killing the singing Parshendi, and he gratefully took the chance to fight a duel with Eshonai. He still did it at first, because he considered all the factors (Rlain’s warnings, Dalinar’s visions, Sureblood’s death, the growing storm). Dalinar’s decision process, on the other hand, seems to have consisted mostly of ‘well my brother told me to go here and fight so here I am, not sure why though’.
I think Alethkar was reasonably stable when Dalinar grew up. They had no king, but they hadn’t had one for centuries. It was Gavilar who decided to shake things up, and ‘set the circumstances’ for Dalinar to become the Blackthorn.
But I do agree how it’s fascinating that Dalinar is so different in the flashbacks, yet he’s still very recognisable.
Also, I’m sorry, I’m very good at turning short replies into giant, 500 words long wall of texts. :)
@@@@@ 226 Gepeto.
I think that the lighteyes like Sebarial, or Hatham (who rescued Dalinar during one of the feasts when he made a political gaffe), who seems to value his political neutrality, and similar people are not so antagonistic. And now Aladar and his camp have also made an alliance with Dalinar & co. So outside of the people Adolin personally pissed off in those camps, to go back to our original argument, he’s probably not doing so badly in the being hated/liked department, :)
Also, again, maybe we’re talking past each other. I never said anything about Adolin being discouraged from soldiering. We even know that Dalinar made Adolin train in an actual spearsquad (though I believe this is after Dalinar started following the codes), and yes, that he started training at 6.
On Mraize: I am not 100% certain, because I don’t have the book in front of me, but I’m pretty sure Mraize is lighteyed. Purple eyes, in fact, like Navani and Jasnah. (Conspiracy theorists: Go! Wild theories have been built on less!) When Shallan first meets him, his back is to her and she thinks for a moment that he might be Hoid, whom she met as a child. But when he turns around, his purple eyes, scars, and much more threatening demeanor kill that thought. No Thaylen eyebrows are mentioned, and they always get a style description with any other Thaylen characters. Of course, he could have just cut and dyed them.
I tend to think that Mraize is a worldhopper himself, based on the feeling of similarity Shallan has, his collection of cosmere goodies, and his association with a known worldhopper. But I suppose he could also be a native Rosharan, even a Thaylen with disguised eyebrows, who went worldhopping away sometime before this story starts and has now hopped back.
On the parshmen: Anger and resentment seem like a perfectly valid reactions to have, as well as very realistic ones. If I’d been under mind-control and enslaved my whole life and was suddenly released and given agency but not enough knowledge to live on, I’d be mad as hell. It doesn’t help that none of the history behind the parshmen’s soul mutilation and enslavement is clear to either humans or parshmen. We don’t even know if the Parshendi abandoned their gods before, during, or after the so-called Last Desolation. Maybe they split off even earlier than we’ve thought, as long ago as the first few Desolations. Maybe they saw the great defeat that was the Last Desolation and decided no ancient betrayal was worth this kind of slaughter and surrender of autonomy.
Going back to TWOK and reading the fragments that Jasnah collected, it seems as if the rest of the world was taken by surprise at the Listener’s transformation often enough for warnings about their seeming harmlessness to make it into the written records. I’m not sure where this fits in with either the parshmen and their mutilated souls or the Parshendi and their purposeful adoptation of dullform, and since the Everstorm is new there must have been some other stimulus to change them. That and Eshonai’s interludes in WOR make me think that a lot of what is happening here was set up as a long-term plan by Odium, and the Heralds–or at least Ishar–played into it.
Wild theory time: Odium knew, or wagered, that the Heralds would eventually break. He was able to guess that breaking their bonds would warp them in some way related to their divine attribute, or maybe he just watched it unfold and took advantage of the opportunity. After the Last Desolation, the survivors were desperate to avoid the return of the Desolations. I think Ishar, in his position as the pious / guiding spiritual head of the Heralds and the Knights Radiant, spearheaded the Recreance. But before that, I think he was also responsible for whatever happened to the parshmen, particularly as that one passage from the in-world WOR hints that the Bondsmiths were involved in the “final defeat” of the Voidbringers. (A lot of people have quoted it here, so I’m pretty sure everyone’s familiar with it.) Based on Nale’s speeches in Edgedancer, I’m guessing that Ishar was also behind Nale’s loopholed but legal killings of proto-Radiants. He, and maybe the rest of the Heralds, have been trying as hard as they can to block off any way that anybody might come into contact with Odium’s spren, whether they’re Listener or human. Their efforts have actually made the conditions here and now worse.
We know from the Stormfather that the Everstorm is new. In WOR Eshonai said it had been building for a long time. I don’t think it would exist if the parshmen hadn’t had bits of their souls ripped away. In some way, binding the souls of the Listeners created a new destructive force, and a way to awaken them quickly.
(I also think that the Listener dead have something to do with all this– from their insistence that corpses not be interfered with, and the mentions of ancestors and spirits of ancestors in Eshonai’s interludes–but I’m not sure what or how. This is what I most want to find out!)
But my guess is that Odium has either inspired or utilized all these factors: Heralds run amok; KR seen as betrayers in the past and learning on the fly in the present; Parshendi who have forgotten so much and been pressed so hard that they’ll turn to dangerous forms just to survive; and, the justified rage of a people whose ancestors had their souls mutilated by the ancestors of those that now own them. He may not be completely responsible for all of these I am sure he at least pushed them along and factored them into his plans.
What I’m hoping is that Kaladin, or someone, can convince at least some of the parshmen that even though they’ve been wronged they can and should “take the first step,” the way his father taught him he should. That Eshonai has escaped stormform and will tell them Odium’s power isn’t worth his dominion. And that later, someone will uncover the full extent of Odium’s manipulation. Also, it’d be nice if Ishar apologized to pretty much everybody, if what I suspect is true. I don’t mean to come down so hard on him, it’s just that I’m afraid that his Divine attribute of Pious / Guiding has been corrupted in the most grievous way: that instead of following his god or what his god would have wished, he is working directly counter to the ideals of Honor and leading those who look to him for guidance ever further from the right path.
Ah, sorry if that got a bit rambly; I was interrupted several times while I was trying to write all this down.
Oh: I use parshmen to refer to the ones who were enslaved, Parshendi for Eshonai’s people, who had the Rhythms and some forms, and Listeners for the species. Seems the easiest way to do it.
Renarin is broken up because he feels he has no aptitude for war and his father is a war hero.
Kaladin actually doesn’t hate the idea of being a surgeon. In fact, in his flashback he actually chooses to be a surgeon just before Tien gets conscripted. He would have been a great healer, is already amazing at it if you take Bridge 4 at their word, he just happens to be a better soldier.
I feel that some of you are disregarding environment and the effect on the expression of a person’s core personality traits. Gepeto, you wrote:
While it is true both Dalinar and Adolin are driven and passionate individuals, they aren’t expressing those traits in the same manner.
That’s true. They do express their passion in different ways. That’s the point. They were raised differently, had different influences, so their behavior and their gifts manifest differently. Do you all believe Adolin would have turned out to be the prince charming we all love if he was raised by Sadeas and Ialai?
When I say Blackthorn Jr, I’m not proposing that he would have ever been a carbon copy of the terror of Alethkar. I am saying that from the outside it would have looked much the same. In fact, because as Elle pointed out Adolin is a more critical thinker, he could have become more a monster if put in the wrong environment.
As far as saying Adolin is nothing like the Blackthorn of old even now, Sadeas would disagree with you. We as readers have a view inside his head so we know they are dissimilar in temperament at the very least. But from the outside many people see Adolin as a worthy successor to the Blackthorn title. Nicer but a better fighter.
Lastly, soldiers, officers and generals are not all of one type. There is more than one way to be good at the craft. You can hate killing to the core and still be a monster. Conversely, you can be a bloodthirsty mad dog and still be ineffective at leading an army.
@207 Urithiru a voidbringer body…. I have thought it was interesting that it mentiined that the strata and marbling of the walls were red, black, and white, but I couldn’t find exactly where that was mentioned.
@233 I’ve considered the potential of Mraise being a worldhopper which may open up the possibility to abilities that could enable him to be behind the double murders.
@228: I don’t recall Brandon confirming which specific role Jasnah filled within OB, but most tertiary characters aren’t getting viewpoints until part 4. I personally do not expect her until then.
@230: LOL whatever fits.
@232: I agree with this post though I don’t recall any specific interactions in between Aladar/Sebrarial and Adolin, but they are much older than he is. The feud seems more in between Adolin and everyone’s son.
Adolin trained in the spearsquad likely after he decided to become a soldier, post Gavilar’s death. I didn’t mean to say Adolin was discouraged from becoming a soldier, but many advanced the idea he was not raised to become one whereas I think he was raised in a way which suggested this was a valid, valuable and rewarding career choice, though dueling was also seen as very acceptable.
@234: We might have to disagree on Kaladin, while it is true he decided to be a surgeon, prior to Tien’s enrollment, his heart never were into it. I personally do not believe he would have stick with it. Lirin expresses sadness at seeing Kaladin did not even TRY to join the surgeons teams. Even Kaladin reflects on how he could have asked Dalinar, but he didn’t. He then admits this wasn’t the path for him, so while Kaladin was predestined to be a good surgeon, this clearly wasn’t the right path for him. I don’t believe Kaladin would have ever felt content to merely heal the injured while being prevented to act at the source of the conflict.
Renarin speaks of his intense desire to become a soldier and threatens to kill himself is not allowed a chance to do it. There are other very valid career choices for high ranked lighteyed, but Renarin wants nothing of them, all he wants is soldering. With the same illness, he could have grown unbroken, had he not have this desire to become a soldier, either he feels he ought to or he really want it, this has yet to be better explained, but facts are Renarin wanted the soldering thing.
I just disagree Adolin could have become a monster: this seems equivalent as saying anyone could become mass murderers whereas I strongly believe you need extraordinary conditions to turn most people into such. Dalinar however never needed much incentive. He might have turned out a better man, had circumstances been different, but he did not need much pushing to turn into a beast.
Sadeas comments on Adolin filling out his father’s shoes because he won impossible fights which is exactly what Dalinar used to be famous for. Sadeas is however completely over looking the other aspect of his former friend: the brutality, the murdering, the killing and the blood lust. Obviously, being an outside observer, Sadeas is not able to comment much more than his impressions based on one duel. People are just seeing Adolin as a good fighter, so they link him to his father, but what made Dalinar the Blackthorn was so much more than his fighting abilities: it was his capacity to go beyond the expected, to do the craziest and to kill whomever stands in his way. Whomever. He was a beast.
Now if the argument is are other outside observers linking Adolin to the Blackthorn, then this may be possible, as people likely do not know the whole truth… They do not know the men Dalinar slaughtered to earn his name and they never saw Adolin dropped his Blade in disgust when ask to slay the helpless singers. Thrill or no Thrill, young Dalinar wouldn’t have cared one bit.
@236: Unless something changed I think the plan was actually for most of the tertiary characters to show up before Part 4 – but that was the old plan and I’m not familiar with if anything changed. And while Sanderson himself might not have confirmed what Jasnah will be doing, the Michael Whelan cover shows her defending a city so we have a pretty good guess I’d say (not sure if it’s confirmed but I know the popular idea is it’s Kholinar).
I’m not sure if it’s just because Kaladin has had a series of short chapters since the former parshmen showed up, but after rereading the other Stormlight Archive books it does make me sad Kaladin flew off and is away from all the character interactions he built in Words of Radiance. Hearthstone at least made up for it by seeing his parents again, but I don’t know if these parshmen are going to cut it in the meantime. But then their storyline feels like it’s still in the early, building stage, so I imagine I’m supposed to feel that way.
Plus for now Syl is kind of limited in how she can interact with Kaladin and I miss their banter, looking forward to that returning sometime soon, I imagine she’ll be noticed before this wraps up.
It might seem more rational for the Parshmen to accept Kaladin’s help, but that is only short-time thinking. If they again fall in the habit of doing what a human says, they go back to where they were before.
And feelings aren’t rational anyway, they exist whether you think it makes sense to have them or not. Ignoring their existence doesn’t make them go away, it just leads to more problems when they can no longer be suppressed.
Rlain would be a better choice than Kaladin to help the Parshmen. He can teach them how to listen to the good rhythms instead of the evil spren, and they are more likely to accept help from him than from a human. Of course there is the danger that the evil spren could corrupt him more easily, but so far even the Parshmen who don’t know that it is evil aren’t sure listening to it is a good idea.
EvilMonkey @234:
People are not blank slates, they do have certain innate predispositions and free will. So, Adolin raised by Sadeas and Ialai wouldn’t have necessarily been an evil SoB/intrigant in their mold, just as Gavilar’s and Dalinar’s parents seem to have been utterly unremarkable rustic lighteyes.
Gepeto @236:
It would be hard to make Jasnah’s prolongued absence (and radio silence) not feel very contrived. She was a week’s journey away from a settlement in WoR epilogue and then there was a Weeping, so no chance to replenish stormlight, but it wouldn’t be plausible for her to not at least check in after the next imminent storm. She needs to urgently share the info she obtained in Shadesmar, after all, even if it may be somewhat outdated. Also, there is this from his FAQ about Sanderson’s reasons to excise Jasnah from WoR:
“she was really messing up the outline, diverting attention from Shallan’s character arc and pointing it toward Shallan/Jasnah conflicts instead.”
And, of course, Ghostbloods and both women’s very different relationships with them would have to be part of said conflicts. Personally, I’d be very disappointed if this stuff was still the focus in the last 2 parts of the volume, not to mention that it looks likely that Jasnah would be in Kholinar by then, as per the book-cover.
So, I’d expect her to re-appear either late in the first part or early in the second, but she would be seen from Shallan’s and Dalinar’s PoVs, with maybe a a partial PoV or 2 like Adolin is currently getting. With the outside possibility being her running into Kaladin and being observed by him – but she really needs to consult with Dalinar and Co., so this is a bit unlikely.
“Adolin trained in the spearsquad likely after he decided to become a soldier, post Gavilar’s death.”
I am not sure why you think that Adolin only decided to become a soldier after Gavilar’s death. If he spent a lot of time with Dalinar in the camps since his childhood, he would have automatically become an officer at a suitable (for Alethi) age. I also don’t recall him being a particularly reluctant one until he had to slaughter entranced, helpless Stormforms. He is a good man, but one still influenced by his culture.
Not that I think that he is particularly like young Dalinar, because he isn’t and, IMHO, never would have been, both due to his different personality and his different circumstances.
As to Renarin, one has to wonder how much of his insistence on becoming a soldier was caused by (subconscious?) Truthwatcher clairvoyance. I mean, he is supposed to be intelligent (though it is more of an informed attribute so far), and his stubborness about this would have been anything but in normal circumstances. Particularly with an example of a successful unmartial Highprince like Sebarial right in front of him.
Sistertotherain @233:
Yes, I too think that Ishar was behind both creation of Parshmen and the Recreance. And that he may be not just insane, but an actual traitor, selling out to Odium, or perhaps just craving real death and not caring what he needs to destroy to obtain it.
I did say Evi plays some role in Adolin’s personality. Not all of Adolin’s core personality traits came from his father. The man Adolin is now has roots in both nature and nurture. And while its certainly true that had Sadeas and Ialai would have raised him it isn’t guaranteed that he’d be a sociopath like young Dalinar, I would say it would be more likely. He certainly would not be the man we all know and like.
My point was always this: 1. Adolin has more in common with the Blackthorn than some would credit and 2.That in a different set of circumstances he could have been as much a monster as his father ever was. I feel that readers tend to see Adolin and think “Hey! That guy could never be as bad or as brutish as his progeny was in his youth”. I disagree. I refer you guys to another character in another series with a dangerous skill set. See Honor Harrington. She is a maestro when it comes to warfare of any type from starships to swords. If she didn’t have the moral core she possesses she could have turned out to be the greatest criminal of her time. Instead she’s a hero, an admiral to which even her enemies aspire to be.
I believe that the Blackthorn was such a repellant person in his youth that his fans deny the very idea of Adolin sharing anything in common with that monster. They don’t want to believe that Adolin could have ever turned out to be that monstrous because they love his character and have no wish for bad things to happen to him. But him putting a knife in Sadeas’s eye shows that he is much closer to the Blackthorn spectrum than anybody thought. It isn’t so much of a stretch to see Adolin breaking bad. I don’t think he will. I don’t see Brandon going in that direction. But if it did happen I would be shocked but not necessarily surprised. Honestly, with the way he has written Adolin his character could go in several different directions. He’s sown seeds for a myriad number of possibilities, some evil and some triumphant. I know I’ll find disagreement on this opinion and that’s fine. It’s a hypothetical anyway. I’ve said my piece on the subject. I’ll read the replies if there are any and drop it.
P.S. I’ve stayed out of the Slavery debate and will continue to do so. Many posters have expressed their opinions on the subject far better than I ever could. Plus as a POC I feel a bit too close to the issue to respond with any type of objectivity.
P.P.S. Whenever we get a Jasnah chapter I will be very happy. Pray it be soon.
@240. Interesting your statement: “Plus as a POC I feel a bit too close to the issue to respond with any type of objectivity.”
I’m also a POC, African-American woman but I’ve never been enslaved so I feel just as empowered enough to comment on the slavery issue and I can be as objective as the next person. And hopefully no one posting comments has been enslaved or owned human chattel so can likewise be objective…
You seen to have a lot of great points about other things, it’s a shame you’re staying out of the slavery debate.
@237: There is a newer plan which has 3 out 4 tertiary characters having viewpoints only in part 4-5. Only one tertiary character has viewpoints before, and it is in part 2, then nothing afterwards.
I will advise not to take the cover as a sign Jasnah will be having a big role into the story. While what we each consider “big” may differ, Brandon did say Jasnah had what he refers to as a “supporting role”. He also said her role was “small” despite him having chosen to put her onto the cover. Of course, ask 10 people to define “small role” and you may get 10 different answers, but such were Brandon words.
The only characters who were “officially confirmed” as being “tertiary characters” as listed on the chart by Brandon himself are : Adolin and Szeth. I think Eshonai was confirmed too, but I can’t remember. The last tertiary character is either Jasnah or Navani. All Brandon said is we would see moderate amount of them into the book, but moderate amount may mean third person’s perspective, not viewpoints or a tertiary spot.
So all in all, we do not know much about Jasnah’s role into OB. I am personally not expecting her until the end of the book, but it may be I am running on false expectations.
I agree about Kaladin’s story arc feeling a bit disconnected and lacking connection with known characters. It is one of the reasons I have found it less engaging than the other characters arcs.
@239: I did not decided it, Adolin tells us about it in WoK. He explains how he only agreed to become a soldier during the Parshendis War. Assassnating Gavlinar hurt Dalinar and Adolin felt if he became a soldier, he could kill the culprits and help his father recover. Hence, Adolin’s time as a spearman likely happened post Gavilar’s death.
As for him being reluctant, he does say so, back in WoR. When he is about to walk into the dueling arena, he ponders on how he misses the noise of the battleground which is odd as it initially bothered him. He then realizes he has become a soldier, despite his initial reluctance.
Those statements weren’t fabrications or interpretations: Adolin’s character tells him about it. We also have Dalinar tell us, back in WoK, Adolin hates the warfare. He mourns over the fact he was forced to turn Adolin into a soldier and wished he didn’t have to do it (because he knows his son doesn’t like it). In parallel Adolin tells us if it was his decision: so clearly father and son do not have the same perspective on the matter, but what is obvious is Adolin never wanted to become a soldier.
@240: I have been a firm advocator on how different Adolin was from Dalinar prior to having read the Thrill. I never thought Adolin had it in him to be the Blackthorn, the Thrill only confirmed those thoughts.
I disagree Adolin could have turned into a monster with the right incentive. I disagree he turned out being kind and hating butcheries merely because his parents raised him this way. I believe in his inner core, Adolin is just not a killer not to say he cannot learn to kill, but ravaging villages, killing children just because he is ordered to without any valid reason, this is not something he would agree to.
There are things Adolin and Dalinar do have in common, but not the Blackthorn. Adolin killing Sadeas was not him turning into the Blackthorn. The Blackthorn needed no reason to kill other then he wanted to, he was ordered to and the other person had something he wanted. He was selfish and self-centerer. Adolin needed an insane amount of pressure and threats being made to his family to finally snap while young Dalinar needed nothing but an axe and an opponent to kill.
I think many readers want Adolin to be like his father because it fuels the “evil Adolin theories” which many are found of. I think many readers over-estimate the meaning of Adolin’s skills as a fighter, over-amplified the fact he was angry at Sadeas (by saying he is an angry person, when he is not) and link it to former Dalinar to state: “This is what he could be, had Dalinar not restrained him”.
I think this is a false argument: Adolin’s character never wanted any of the things which made Dalinar the Blackthorn. This being said, I can’t help others reading the character differently than I do, but I sincerely wonder where is the rational which goes with Adolin killing children and hacking to people as if they were logs. A lot of Adolin’s take on things seem to originate from him, hunting being the prime examples. Alethi love hunting, Dalinar loves hunting, he tried to convinced Adolin to love hunting and yet he hates it because it is barbarous. This is him, his character, his personality and I find it completely incompatible with the man Dalinar once was and still is.
There’s an important side of the Dalinar-Adolin comparison that doesn’t seem to have been considered properly – Gavilar.
Dalinar grew up idolising his older brother, and I think it’s almost certain that Gavilar’s plan to conquer of Alethkar didn’t come on all of a sudden. Admitedly I’m now in the realm of conjecture, but I imagine Gavilar decided on this as his purpose while growing up (so early teenage years at the latest). So Dalinar would have gone through his formative years following a brother who was dreaming and planning to conquer Alethkar and involving his younger brother in the dream and plans. So this is what set Dalinar on this path where he considered conquest to be the most important thing he can do – for his beloved brother, for honour and for his religion (to help reconquer the Tranquiline Halls). With that as his ultimate purpose, it’s easy to see how he would put aside other less-important considerations (as he would consider them) and turn himself into the man that he became.
Now put Adolin in his place…
I’m not saying he would have been quite as brutal as Dalinar was as I agree he appears to be innately more considerate of others. But I do think he would have acted very similarly during the battles, just less likely to fly into murderous rage outside of battles.
@@@@@ 234 EvilMonkey.
Hmm, I still think that someone who hates killing, and who is also intelligent and capable of critical thinking and changing tactics will always find a way to avoid killing, by using tactics the Alethi, ironically enough would find less honorable.
Adolin is too moral, and not pragmatical enough to still be a monster while hating killing.
But maybe I’m just pushing back against the idea because I simply hate the idea of Adolin turning out like that. Fortunately we have a lot more flashbacks to go, and to provide us with more detailed information about both Adolin and Dalinar. :)
@@@@@ 236 Gepeto
True, but May Aladar is here now, to provide Adolin with a non-antagonistic lighteyed peer. :) They’ve been working together, and as far as we’ve been told, she’s never even thrown anything at him! Adolin needs actual friends.
Oh I believe Adolin was raised to become a proper Alethi lighteyes, which for men means he was of course trained in swordfighting, and encouraged to fight. However, I think in the mindset of most high lighteyes, soldiers are maybe a bit beneath them? They are officers, master swordsmen, duelling champions and generals.
A lot of them will never run in front of a charge, but they will lead the armies from behind the frontline. Being a soldier, as Adolin and Dalinar seem to think of it in these books, involves actual experience with battle (see the ardent master swordsman vs kadash the former soldier). It’s getting used to the clamour and the chaos of the fight, not standing at a distance, looking out over everything. Adolin himself says his point of reference for what a fight should be has turned from the duelling arena to the battleground, and that he had somehow become a soldier.
EDIT: I see you have now said similar things in 242, so we probably agree on this.
About Kaladin, while I believe he wouldn’t stop surgery because his heart wasn’t in it, I also believe he would’ve probably burned out very quickly. His problem is not that he doesn’t want to help and heal people, but that he can’t lose patients. That’s why he keeps searching out small groups of people he can watch over and prevent from getting hurt at all. And why he reacts so strongly when he fails. Constantly only seeing hurt patients, and losing them on a regular basis would burn him out.
@@@@@ 243 Aon Reo.
Yes, Gavilar is probably at the heart of all this. And while we know Dalinar has always appreciated independence and critical thought from his officers, we have no idea what Gavilar was like. We know Dalinar never even considered thinkin Gavilar might be wrong, and we have no inclination Gavilar has any problems with that opinion.
@229 ‘ I have seen many comments here and elsewhere saying they have no right to be resentful or angry towards their captors, that they are just beasts of burden, that humans did them a favor by enslaving them.” I haven’t seen that.
I think you are seeing push-back against reading too much into the book. In this imaginary world an awful thing happened to the parshmen and it was compounded by centuries if not millennia of unending slavery. The nuance that makes this different than reality is that it appears without intervention, care, and feeding the parshmen would have withered and died. The text even hints that the bondsmith who caused all this was wrestling with a similar issue. Do I exterminate these mortal enemies (who are periodically susceptible to the influence of a malignant force that was so powerful as to take away their volition) or do I try to find some way to block that force and save them from extinction?
Did he know what effect that would have on them? Was the unintended consequence so vast that it shattered all bonds of trust between men and spren and kill generations of spren? Those are my suspicions. At the very least the books seem to indicate that the parshmen could not care for themselves in their current state until something healed them. The other people of the time are variously viscous slavers, willing participants, oblivious beneficiaries, similarly victimized and even harmless bystanders.
The narrow focus on blame for all humans and condemnation for actions that had no easy answers in this imaginary world are, I think, the reason you are seeing push-back.
Analogy time: an empire conquers a small neighboring kingdom. When the people of that land constantly rise up in rebellion, demanding freedom and independence, the empire kills them in huge numbers and scatters their survivors across the world as tiny communities of exiles. Do the descendants of the victims, millennia later, have the “right” to be angry at the descendants of the conquerors, long after that empire fell, and its successors fell, and the states that were successors to the successors fell?
Because that is not fantasy. It’s my own familial history. I’m Jewish. The Roman Empire conquered ancient Judah, and when the Jews (which means “people of Judah”) rose up in repeated rebellion, destroyed the local civilization and scattered my ancestors across the known world. So, two millennia later, should I (may I) hate all Italians?
No one has argued that the restored Parshmen are not “entitled” to anger and resentment. I for one am only arguing that blaming Kaladin makes zero sense.
Evilmonkey @240:
“But him putting a knife in Sadeas’s eye shows that he is much closer to the Blackthorn spectrum than anybody thought.”
IMHO, it showed the opposite. Young Dalinar would kill you just for being in Gavilar’s and his way and/or if you had some stuff he wanted, even if he knew and vaguely liked you. As happened with Lord Tanalan – concerning whom, it is ambigious whether Gavilar actually wanted him dead, necessarily. But Dalinar wanted Thrill and his shardblade, so… With Adolin and Sadeas, it took repeated attempts on Kholins’ lives, which actually killed Adolin’s friends/comrades and soldiers under his command, and expressed intention to continue in the same vein – i.e. extreme provocation, to get the latter killed.
Oh and speaking of, some eagle-eyed poster on the 17th Shard noticed this:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/61562-edgedancer-spoilers-too-how-long-have-they-been-watching/?do=findComment&comment=620224
“They were not capable of killing me, so I can’t plead self-defense, any more than a soldier could plead it in murdering a child” quoth Arclo the Sleepless. If this isn’t very suggestive of the boy’s fate at Dalinar’s hands, I don’t know what is.
Braid_Tug @215 :
Concerning parshmen slavery – we should be careful with iRL associations, because in Cosmere some things are very different indeed. Both humans and Parshendi in Eshonai’s prologue believed that parshmen couldn’t survive on their own. And we know for certain that they were seriously mentally crippled – and seemed non-sapient from outside. iRL dogs, for instance, were used for animal care (independant herding) and childcare among certain cultures and are still employed to help people with impairments. Imagine how much more widely they would have been used if they had opposable thumbs!
Having said that, I could buy parshmen caring for their own children, maybe with some reminders/supervision, since their children would have been similarly impaired in their agency, but a parshman nurse for an energetic human infant, like Dalinar must have been, doesn’t seem at all plausible. It looks like a thoughtless use of a trope that doesn’t fit the worldbuilding – as a washerwomen in a Vorin culture. I mean, in ancient Rome men and boys were professional launderers – and it would have made much more sense in Alethi setting.
Anyway – Vorin cultures also have human slavery – IIRC we didn’t see any in Azir and Tashiik? But people who had parshmen slaves in many cases weren’t equipped for human ones – i.e. Roshone and his pitiful guards. So, while they might pine for their lost docile parshmen, I am not sure that they’d want the newly awakened, angry ones back so badly.
Also, human slaves have to be payed and it isn’t clear if children of slaves are also enslaved? IMHO, given all that, there is room for dialog between “new” listeners and humans.
@247 The Horneaters are the only ones that I remember a explicit statement that they do not have slaves. We do not have this thing–Rock
AND the Listeners.
@244 Speaking of losing too many patients (and to muddle three fandoms together with gleeful abandon), Kaladin at the honor chasm is the same metaphor as Penric on a hillside at dawn.
The Star Wars trailer came along and distracted me, so I’m finally now getting to this.
Flashback! So, Gavilar is clearly already starting to consider something greater than just the conquering. Dalinar is stilll….blessedly simple, haha.
I actually kind of like Ialai. Aside from being kind of murderous, I feel like I’d enjoy hanging out with her and eating spicy food and making off color jokes.
This chapter actually was written with a great mix of humor (I find it much more effective than the attempts at Shallan’s quippy humor. Her quips often just make me cringe). And I do wonder what’s up with Toh, Evi and why he was on the run.
Kal’s chapter with the parshman is really good; and I had the same reaction as the parshman when Kaladin (perhaps unintentionally) implied that the only reason they deserve rights is because now they can talk, are ‘smart’, are no longer voicepless/powerless/vulnerable, etc. As well as the implication that rights are ‘given’.
Kaladin is certainly stuck between a rock and a hard place :(
Shallan – oh dear, I don’t even want to touch the cycle stuff, LOL. Brandon is brave for trying to write about it because I’m sure it’s going to irritate SOMEBODY, lol/ I actually tend to be pretty tactless about this topic so I’ll gladly talk about it, especially the idea that Cultivation is behind it (whether it’s true or not, it seems to be something they believe).
No mating, HAHAHAH :D
I love massages so much…so jealous of Palona and Sebarial’s setup, haha.
Oh man, Mraize is there, dun dun DUN!
First off, thank you to everyone involved in making these early chapters available to us. For Free! Truly remarkable community.
I’m in love with the world building. I have been from the beginning. Small, insignificant details like firemoss, giant ecosystem development, thoughtful character backstories… It’s all wonderful. I’m a giant fan of Sanderson’s work.
I want to ask though, is anyone else finding the dialogue off? I keep thinking that I want to describe it as “lazy” but that’s not the right word. It’s just different feeling than WoK or WoR. It lacks weight maybe? Use of words like “weird” or “blarg” or phrases like “I got this” or the short, choppy back and forth. I really enjoy what’s being said and by whom, but I’m just taken out of the moment sometimes by how it’s being said. It’s almost too “today” in style. I really don’t want to come across as critical; I’m stoked for this book and all others, but I am curious if I’m the only one reading it this way.
I’ve really enjoyed reading the comments this time around, especially on the slavery/anger/resentment issue. In some ways, this is also at the heart of the conflict of Warbreaker towards the end. How does one stop the cycle, while also acknowledging the legitmacy of anger at injustice and their right to feel it and be heard?
I do think it is important to not overlay too many real world scenarios (although the themes are still applicable). And I think we still don’t know quite enough about how the Parshmen became how they were, and how much the current Alethi knows about this, or how well they could have survived on their own. They seem to be able to learn and to do tasks, even moderately complex ones, but do we know if they had initiative? Was that something also taken from them? Even if the humans had let them go, would they have formed their own society? (This doesn’t justify actual slavery, and considering that they keep human slaves as well they don’t have a great track record on this anyway).
Rereading the summary of the epigraphs so far I also am leaning further away from Jasnah as it just seems kind of rambly and really seems to be a person trying to justify something they’ve done. Perhaps it’s written by whomever is responsible for the Parshmen’s fate.
To the person who brought up Brandon Sanderson and couples with chemistry and why the ones with chemistry don’t get together (although I love Wax/Steris) – maybe it’s to make the point that initial chemistry isn’t really what is important? But as others have pointed out it’s subjective and people may find the canon couples have chemistry anyway.
Re Jasnah: Is getting a viewpoint the same as being mentioned? She could come in sooner and be mentioned and interact with each of the main characters, but she still may not get a viewpoint.
In case anyone is wondering, I sent emails to both Amazon and Macmillian requesting to know at what time the Oathbringer ebook will be released.
Amazon told me sometime in the morning of November 14, but to contact the publisher for the exact time. The director of ebook publication for Macmillian emailed me the following:
“it’s 12am of the country in which you reside. So on release day, AU (Australia) gets it released and then it moves timezone to timezone. In the US, it is set to midnight EST.”
Only 1 more month to go!
*might be a good time to butter up to any Ozzie friends you may have!
@243: I agree with Gavilar being Dalinar’s most significant relationship. I agree most of his persona, character and later behavior (especially his parenting of Elhokar, Adolin and Renarin) is very strongly influenced by how he perceived, viewed and felt towards Gavilar.
He however yearned to be a soldier and that, I doubt it was influenced by Gavilar’s desire to conquer the world. Gavilar just gave him an easy way and an excuse to slaughter. Dalinar also speaks of how he loves hunting and taking down great creatures.
I thus do think Dalinar would have turned out much differently without Gavilar, except he perhaps wouldn’t have gotten so many great wards to make his skills known. He wouldn’t have had the opportunity to take down so many Highprinces, but he would have become a bloody warlord nonetheless.
@244: I agree with your response to Evil Monkey.
I think it is interesting we look into Dalinar’s first flashback. In it, Dalinar is not content to just slaughter people, he demands a challenge, he demands someone more “worth” killing which is about when the local town lord’s son greats him with one. Dalinar however instead of giving him a fair, honest and real challenge, just butchers him, because such is Dalinar. War is war and in war there are winners and losers. Dalinar will not bother if the fight is even or not, if the challenge is met at equal forces or not: he will ignore the rules of decency and he will kill whomever stands in his way using which ever means he can.
This is the complete opposite behavior Adolin would have had if ever put within a similar situation, this is the complete opposite behavior as the one Adolin had. Adolin tells us, in many instances, he likes a challenge, a honest challenge, a contest of strength, wit and skill which is why he loved dueling and why he hates hunting. One implies a contest where each member has a chance of winning, where the best fighter does win while the other is utterly unfair as the animal never stands a chance against superior force. One thrills him, one he despises and calls it a butchery. During the Narack fight, Adolin is put in a situation where he has to butchered helpless people. He can’t. He hates it. He does not demand more, he drops his Blade and start shaking. Sure, he lost the Thrill, but Thrill-less Dalinar still killed. Then comes Eshonai and Adolin jumps on the occasion: a fair fight, a honest fight, a duel.
These passages illustrate the innate differences in between Dalinar and Adolin and why one yearned to be a soldier while the other, despite having been raised into a war worshiping society, despite having trailed on warcamps since childhood, yearned to be a duelist and hates the warfare. In shorts, Adolin strongly values the idea of fair fights, of contests while Dalinar just values being the baddest, the strongest and the meanest man around. One doesn’t seek to kill, but to defeat out of his better skill. the other just wants to kill and to destroy.
To be fair, we haven’t seen May Aladar and Adolin interact… I have been wondering what her purpose may be. I thought Dalinar would marry Adolin to her once his relationship with Shallan breaks down, but now I wonder if she won’t be the one uncovering Adolin’s deed. He did left clues, people just need to figure them out.
Adolin and Dalinar do not seek to lead from the back lines: they both feel if they are to fight, they ought to it on the front lines. This is something they do have in common but this isn’t what made Dalinar the Blackhorn, it was his brutality and his capacity to just slaughter people in any way he saw fit even if highly dishonorable. War is war and it excuses everything.
And yeah, you are right about Adolin figuring he became a soldier, despite his initial reluctance. He wouldn’t have chosen this path for himself, but Dalinar would have always chosen to be a soldier.
On the matter of Kaladin, I think surgery would have made him utterly unhappy. Surgeons are meant to fix, to repair, to heal the injured while Kaladin yearns to prevent harm from happening. Being a surgeon would have made him feel as if he is always applying bandages without ever stopping the hemorrhage. Thus, I do believe, sooner or later, Kaladin would have joined the army because being a soldier is where he feels useful, it is where he feels he does the most good. He works at the root of the problem, not at the end of it where all he would do is great, but not changing the course of events.
@247: Great quote about Dalinar most likely killing the child. I agree Adolin required insane amount of provocation to finally snap and kill Sadeas. All Dalinar ever needed to kill was Gavilar telling him to or the other person having something he wanted. He would have taken care of Sadeas a LONG time ago, in his own personal brutal way, but the Blackthorn never needed valid reasons to kill, just the right frame.
Oh and Dalinar never worried about not meeting anyone’s expectations: he never cared about what people expected nor wanted of him. Adolin just hinted on how problematic his relationship with his father actually is because it is born out of expectations he cannot meet. Being told he is the perfect son just made him tick badly.
@235 I assume as a ?Thunderclast? raised from the lakebed of the pure lake with strata formed by intermittent high storms
RE the strata in Urithiru. I just found a description in the WoK on Shalan drawing the strata in Kabranth which is rumored to be made by the Dawn singers. She didn’t have any trouble getting the whole city drawn like she does with Urithiru but she does describe the pattern in the stones the same way.
Interesting in deed
Why do the websites of booksellers in Germany say that the paperback comes out in November? Shouldn’t that be the hardback?
Am I the only one that believes that the voidbringers were human? Somebody not only forced the parshmen into slavery, the annihilated their identities. Creating a “void” inside of an entire people! That’s like a rape/murder/genocide cocktail. Perhaps one of the orders of radiant did it and that was the final straw for the heralds, who by the way have millennia of battle fatigue. Causing them to finally tell humanity to eff off. Just a thought. Getting deep in here. And where the hell is Jasnah and Wit? Too many chapters have went by without some kind of mention.
@@@@@ 250 noblehunter
I’m sorry, I don’t quite follow that comparison. Where is it from?
@@@@@ 256 Gepeto
To be honest, in Dalinar’s flashback, I think he gives his opponent what Dalinar thinks is a fair battle. He is a soldier after all, not a duellist. This reminds me of something though. I believe from some of your earlier comments you had read all the Unfettered II flashbacks? Spoilers for that:
[There was an interesting/worrying progression during the flashbacks. In the first, Dalinar keeps looking for someone to challenge him, to look for the Thrill. And when the other brightlord accepts his challenge, he does his best to kill him reasonably fairly, though according to the rules of the battleground, not the duelling arena.
Then in the second flashback, Dalinar just got his shardplate, and is annoyed that using it doesn’t require any skills, an old man would be just as good as him. No one challenges him in any way. Yet he finds the Thrill very easily.
And the fourth flashback is.. even more worrying. He explicitly mentions that by now he’s not really interested in finding a worthy challenge, and he’s even annoyed by the other Highprince challenging him and drawing him away from the hundreds of pretty much defenseless soldiers he just slaughtered, his own men among them.
So at that point he is, as you said a butcherer, and very different from Adolin, and it seems to me that it’s quite a quick progression, though I’m not sure what it means.] Though I’m not so sure Adolin would react differently to the challenge from the first flashback. He’d be less dismissive at the fancy gestures, but he’d still fight in a more practical way. We were talking about his alternative battlefield tactics before, and he likes to switch between blade and his fists to catch his opponents off guard. Dalinar does pretty much the same in that duel, switching between weapons.
About May.. I don’t think (I hope) she’s not going to be a romantic interest, and she’s just going to be an interesting character.
I think Kaladin does want to fix and heal people (he does it with Bridge Four after all, though in a more metaphorical way). He just doesn’t want anyone to die. :) If Roshar had them, I’d say Kaladin would be a great physical/physiotherapist. He did have some ideas for how Lopen could learn to fight with one arm after all. Then he gets to work closely together with people, help make them better, and there’s no (very little) chance of anyone dying.
@261: Good catch about Dalinar’s progression…
Spoiler for the Thrill:
It wasn’t as sudden as it appears. About 10 years elapsed in between the first and the fourth flashback. Dalinar is a few years older than Adolin. This chapter literally froze me over, when I read Dalinar killing his own men, not carrying which side they are fighting as long as he is killing them? This is the complete opposite behavior we see Adolin adopt at a younger age and no doubt Dalinar refers to some of it when he claims Adolin has been “good from the start”. Too bad Adolin never knew the Blackthorn: people must not have talked much of how Dalinar slaughtered anyone standing near him, even his own soldiers if they dared come too close. This is also the chapter where he rushes to kill Gavilar because he is too jealous of him only to stop himself, feel guilty and compensate by giving Elhokar Shards he ought to have kept for his own yet to be born son.
I think Adolin would have fought the fight more like a duel, he wouldn’t have rammed into him, killing him. He’d have honored his desire for a fair fight and he’d give it to him. Though once the “duel” starts, Adolin would use every tactic he has to win, just like he did with Salinor, but he’d be more respectful about it.
I think Kaladin wants to protect people more than he wants to fix them. He wants to lead them, to form them so they can protect themselves afterwards. I never read it as him wanting to heal them, more like him wanting to shape them up and make them stop being hurt.
Is it Tuesday YET??
@@@@@ 262 Gepeto
Unfettered II
[True, the flashbacks take place over a series of years, though it seems the final versions of them will be closer together than they were in the Unfettered II release. Still, these are all the ‘episodes’ that are important for us to understand Dalinar’s flashback story, and storywise, it’s a rather fast descend. I agree Adolin never really knew the Blackthorn, just the heroic and cleaned up stories about him..]
About the duel between Dalinar and the other brightlord in chapter 3, I went back and looked it up. He shot the horse, to get rid of that advantage. Then words used to the describe the fighting style of both men is rather brutal, though Dalinar is the only one who seems to be high on the Thrill. At the end, Dalinar slams the poleaxe down, which he has to do to get through the breastplate, and then he lets his men kill the brightlord quickly. While definitely not a duel, it is not so unfair as it might seem at first glance.
Kaladin definitely wants to protect people, but there’s no reason he couldn’t have channeled that wish through healing (or physical therapy :) ). I don’t think he wanted to lead them at the beginning. I think he joined the army for the in-story reasons, then changed his job as a squadleader around until he found a way to protect and care for the men under his charge. He definitely treats his charges with more care than any other squadleader has. Either way, this is what his experience has shown him is the best way to protect his men. He won’t ever be a surgeon now (probably).
@57 I thought the same thing. Two of my favorite heroes precisely for their sense of empathy.
@@@@@ 246. Carl
Analogy time: an empire conquers a small neighboring kingdom. When the people of that land constantly rise up in rebellion, demanding freedom and independence, the empire kills them in huge numbers and scatters their survivors across the world as tiny communities of exiles. Do the descendants of the victims, millennia later, have the “right” to be angry at the descendants of the conquerors, long after that empire fell, and its successors fell, and the states that were successors to the successors fell?
Because that is not fantasy. It’s my own familial history. I’m Jewish. The Roman Empire conquered ancient Judah, and when the Jews (which means “people of Judah”) rose up in repeated rebellion, destroyed the local civilization and scattered my ancestors across the known world. So, two millennia later, should I (may I) hate all Italians?
Yes they absolutely do and while I understand your real life scenario it is vastly different from this situation. Rather than simply being driven into a diaspora (likely what happened to the Parshendi). An entire race was stripped of their free will and subjugated for generations. It isn’t like slavery of the Parshmen was a thing of the past. They have been free for like a week and a half and already they have someone they view as their previous master already trying (although well intentioned) to lead them again. It would be absurd to think that the Parshmen would simply be okay with this situation and would instantly befriend and accept Kaladin as a pseudo leader/helper. Your real world example completely misses the centuries of ongoing slavery factor that is at play here and is the root of their justified anger.
@266 jpoet1291
Kaladin doesn’t need to be popular, and he’s not helping because he wants to be in charge. He has skills that the parshmen need, and he’s teaching them those skills so that they can successfully escape. Even after Sah shouts that he wants to take revenge, even after Kaladin thinks that war is inevitable, he still goes back to help out. His help isn’t conditional on the parshmen liking him or accepting him as a leader, but on the simple fact that they need help and helping is what he does.
@@@@@ 246. Carl
I am not a historian. I am not Jewish. But, I have some general knowledge of the stories in the Old Testament. Your post just did not sound right. A quick look at Wikipedia says that Judah was it was under the Assyrian Empire not the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah
Perhaps, what happened to Judah was “regional” and not an imperialistic move by the Roman Republic (not the Roman Empire which was founded only in 27 BC.)
Just my thoughts.
Time
Just under 4 hours from this message
4 more weeks!!! Then we can read the whole thing and not obsess after each sentence three chapters at a time!
@271 @kals_gal but I like obsessing over the book 3 chapters at a time, I have made some awesome discoveries reading with everyone here, … and some outlandish theories that really just seem to FIT.
Time check
Just under an hour @impatient reader
268. sheiglagh
You are ignoring a lot of history. Look into the Maccabees and Masada
@275 Tommy -I’m not a historian. And yes I will look at the Maccabees and Masada. But the original post by Carl was blaming the Romans for breaking up Judah. It was their neighboring empire Assyria and then the Egyptians. The Romans came later,
Rome’s hand is not clean. It has a lot of blood in it. But Rome is not to blame for the enslavement of Judah as I understand History
sheiglagh@276: the last (Roman client) king of Judah was removed by the Romans and replaced by a Roman governor. It’s actually referenced in the Christian gospels, if you happen to be a Christian. (This happened almost exactly at the same time as the best estimate of Jesus’ birth year.) See the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea#Roman_conquest
In any case, my point was about the Diaspora and the tyrannical foreign oppression of my ancestors by the Romans, which I don’t think anyone disputes.
Has anyone else considered Taln as the author of oathbringer? The name alone fits his character. Plus he was trapped between realms.
What I found interesting in these chapters was the yellow sperns. First around first around Dalinar’s future wife and then around the parshmen with Kaladin. Is yellow a common color with spren? Are they the same type of spren?
I vote for Kaladin as the champion. His name is so like Paladin, name from that of the foremost knight warriors in Charlemagne’s court. Also the name in an old western.
It took Gladiator being shown on TV for me to realise this:
Wouldn’t Russell Crowe be an amazing Dalinar?
@ jack_macguire
If not for jack_macguire’s comment, I would have never found Worm by Wildbow. Thank you very much, even if me seeing your comment is sheer luck.
It is so good. Brandon Sanderson material level and beyond (though it’s a slightly different niche, has a darker vibe, which I personally prefer due to being realistic and logical). The main characters rely on creativity and serious logical analysis mid-combat to win the fights, generating tools and clues about the opponent’s weaknesses. The embodiment of playing the cards that you’re dealt, putting an emphasis on character and skill over sheer brute force granted by abilities. You can see, realistically, how one combatant takes apart the mind and psychology of their enemy, taking apart the illusions and secrets that hold the enemy’s worldview together, and watch the enemy collapse like a puppet with their strings cut, all using nothing but words.